2021-05-24 19:17:50	-->	wymiller (@wymiller:matrix.wyattjmiller.com) has joined #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-24 18:32:37	@zurdo:zurdo.si	huh, that wiki article has been updated from the last time I checked it out and now mentions systemd-nspawn directly, so it's almost definitely what Dan meant. Still, good link :P
2021-05-24 18:31:16	@zurdo:zurdo.si	if a chroot would be enough, https://wiki.debian.org/QemuUserEmulation may be all you need, which sounds like it isn't far from what Dan Johansen | Manjaro ARM  said (it uses qemu-user-static). This mechanism teaches your x86 kernel to use qemu to live emulate binaries on the fly
2021-05-24 15:43:54	@fedx:matrix.org	Ok. I will definitely take a look. Thank you so much!
2021-05-24 19:37:04	paperdigits	I think nix containers also use systemd-nspawn
2021-05-24 19:48:51	fedx	This may  be a really bad idea, but I was able to get qemu-static-user working with Podman. Thank you so much for all your help!
2021-05-24 20:55:06	paperdigits	Seems like a house of cards, but if it works 
2021-05-24 20:30:14	⚠️ kendall	Bad event received, event type: m.room.message
2021-05-24 21:35:21	kendall	For anyone running a matrix server. Do you open up port 8448, or do you run federation over 443? I've seen the instructions on running it over 443 and thought "Cool, one less port to open". It worked, but then it brought the whole network to its knees. I just opened up 8448 and it seems to be working alright....Well, that is if you're able to see this 🙃 .
2021-05-24 23:25:14	dhanesh95	Kendall: I'm able to see this so federation is working. 👍🏼
2021-05-24 23:25:14		As for the ports, I run federation over 8448 for my server. I believe it's better to stick the default if you have other services / websites that are running alongside your matrix instance.
2021-05-24 23:58:56	jasonish	> In reply to @fedx:matrix.org
2021-05-24 23:58:56		> This may  be a really bad idea, but I was able to get
2021-05-24 23:58:56		> qemu-static-user working with Podman. Thank you so much
2021-05-24 23:58:56		> for all your help!
2021-05-24 23:58:56		Seems perfectly fine to me.  I do it all the time to build Arm binaries using Arm container images are my amd64.
2021-05-24 23:59:16	jasonish	> In reply to @fedx:matrix.org
2021-05-24 23:59:16		> This may  be a really bad idea, but I was able to get
2021-05-24 23:59:16		> qemu-static-user working with Podman. Thank you so much
2021-05-24 23:59:16		> for all your help!
2021-05-24 23:59:16		 * Seems perfectly fine to me.  I do it all the time to build Arm binaries using Arm container images on my amd64.
2021-05-25 00:41:04	strit	> In reply to @kendall:thewhitmans.cloud
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> For anyone running a matrix server. Do you open up port
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> 8448, or do you run federation over 443? I've seen the
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> instructions on running it over 443 and thought "Cool, one
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> less port to open". It worked, but then it brought the
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> whole network to its knees. I just opened up 8448 and it
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> seems to be working alright....Well, that is if you're
2021-05-25 00:41:04		> able to see this 🙃 .
2021-05-25 00:41:04		I opened 8448 for federation.
2021-05-25 12:37:00	jasonish	Hmm.. I just noticed that ctrl-7 in a terminal deletes to the start of line..  Are there other shortcuts like this documented somewhere?
2021-05-25 12:43:31	drw	https://www.tecmint.com/linux-command-line-bash-shortcut-keys/
2021-05-25 12:55:40	paperdigits	Tip #1 switch to zsh ;)
2021-05-25 13:04:45	simondanerd	Good tip: they have ohmyzsh
2021-05-25 13:06:19	drw	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-25 13:06:19		> Tip #1 switch to zsh ;)
2021-05-25 13:06:19		OSS is all about freedom and not being forced by an individual or organization into what they feel is best for everyone else
2021-05-25 13:07:55	masonbeelimited	Oh my bash it is then? https://ohmybash.nntoan.com/
2021-05-25 13:08:45	simondanerd	Hmm. That's cool. Does it have autocomplete and syntax support?
2021-05-25 13:15:21	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Forget ohmyzsh, try zsh4humans.
2021-05-25 13:16:04	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	fzf-tab and p10k are great.
2021-05-25 13:16:11	paperdigits	> In reply to @drw:castour.net
2021-05-25 13:16:11		> OSS is all about freedom and not being forced by an
2021-05-25 13:16:11		> individual or organization into what they feel is best for
2021-05-25 13:16:11		> everyone else
2021-05-25 13:16:11		Too early for jokes with you, i see.
2021-05-25 13:16:18	paperdigits	Freedom is very serious.
2021-05-25 13:16:24	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	* fzf-tab and p10k (included in z4h) are great. 
2021-05-25 13:16:33	simondanerd	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-25 13:16:33		> fzf-tab and p10k are great.
2021-05-25 13:16:33		I love p10k
2021-05-25 13:16:40	masonbeelimited	No idea, I have never used it...oh, actually I have on a mac I think but it annoyed me so I uninstalled it.
2021-05-25 13:16:40		Hmmm, checked around and I can't see anything. There is an bash-completion package in ubuntu and debian buster though.
2021-05-25 13:16:50	<--	@loaonline:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-25 13:17:04	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	> In reply to @simondanerd:matrix.org
2021-05-25 13:17:04		> I love p10k
2021-05-25 13:17:04		I do too, I wrote a couple of custom segments for it
2021-05-25 13:18:44	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	https://github.com/xPMo/zsh-prompt-dir-perms and https://github.com/xPMo/zsh-prompt-dir-glob
2021-05-25 13:19:22	<--	@loaonline:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-25 13:19:31	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	dir-glob is rather opaque, I need to restructure it
2021-05-25 13:19:57	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	* dir-glob is rather opaque, I need to restructure it if I want anyone to actually use it
2021-05-25 13:23:17	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	imo people rely too much on frameworks for their shell config
2021-05-25 13:25:07	simondanerd	That's true. I wish there was a centralized configurator for noobs and those of us that are lazy to configure our interactive shells. drag and drop and support for sh, bash, fish, ssh would be great.
2021-05-25 13:27:06	drw	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-25 13:27:06		> Too early for jokes with you, i see.
2021-05-25 13:27:06		I was just joking around. Unless you were being serious, then my reply should be taken seriously. 😀
2021-05-25 13:37:45	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	> In reply to @simondanerd:matrix.org
2021-05-25 13:37:45		> That's true. I wish there was a centralized configurator
2021-05-25 13:37:45		> for noobs and those of us that are lazy to configure our
2021-05-25 13:37:45		> interactive shells. drag and drop and support for sh,
2021-05-25 13:37:45		> bash, fish, ssh would be great.
2021-05-25 13:37:45		That would get really ugly really quickly. Things are so opinionated, and some ideas don't apply to all shells. They're different languages after all
2021-05-25 13:38:19	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	I need to write a noobs guide to zsh tab completion though.
2021-05-25 13:38:35	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	* I need to write a noobs guide to zsh completion configuration though. 
2021-05-25 13:38:35	simondanerd	Imma see what I can do. If it flops, well, it was worth the try and if it works, yay.
2021-05-25 13:50:23	danielsan	If you are a pythonista you could find xonsh shell interesting
2021-05-25 14:01:38	@minimec	#LupLug meeting in an hour! We celebrate 'Towel Day!' with our new mumble SoundBot. Prepare your towel pics and put them into your mumble profile... Feel free to join...
2021-05-25 14:15:46	masonbeelimited	Have a happy meeting :)
2021-05-25 14:16:26	@minimec	> In reply to @masonbeelimited:matrix.org
2021-05-25 14:16:26		> Have a happy meeting :)
2021-05-25 14:16:26		THX. I hope we will...
2021-05-25 15:01:25	--	Notice(_neb_rssbot_=40noblepayne=3ajupiterbroadcasting.com): LINUX Unplugged: 407: And the Answer is... ( https://linuxunplugged.com/407 )
2021-05-25 15:02:29	fedx	Hey, I am working on a science fair project. I am wanting to make a mobile Linux operating system. I need a mentor who is “a professional in their field.” It is not a big commitment. Mostly it’s to make sure I don’t hurt myself, and this does not hugely relate to the computer science category. If anyone would be willing to mentor me I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!
2021-05-25 15:03:24	strit	What does mentoring entail?
2021-05-25 15:05:32	fedx	Mostly it is so that I don’t misuse dangerous chemicals and hurt someone. However I would be hard pressed to do something dangerous with my project.
2021-05-25 15:06:21	strit	Well, I do help create the default OS on the PinePhone, but we use our own scripts for it.
2021-05-25 15:06:50	strit	So I might be able to give pointers and advice, depending of the OS you are basing on.
2021-05-25 15:09:43	fedx	Well thank you so much. I need a mentor to start so nothing is set in stone as of the moment. Mind if I send some paperwork documenting that I am not participating in dangerous scientific acts?
2021-05-25 15:11:04	strit	Not sure how dangerous putting together a bunch of linux packages can be.... 😉 
2021-05-25 15:14:34	fedx	Thanks so much. I mean there’s Kali?
2021-05-25 15:15:42	strit	Kali is made for a very specific usecase though. 😉 
2021-05-25 15:17:42	fedx	Agreed, but it also is how you use it.  
2021-05-25 15:18:44	strit	Kali shouldn't really be used outside those couple of usecases.
2021-05-25 15:21:21	fedx	Yah, it technically can work for anything if you try hard enough, but it would not be fun. 
2021-05-25 15:21:41	strit	That's linux in general though.
2021-05-25 15:22:27	fedx	Yah, mind if I DM the documents to you?
2021-05-25 15:22:47	strit	Sure.
2021-05-25 15:22:47	strit	Sure.
2021-05-25 15:22:27	fedx	Yah, mind if I DM the documents to you?
2021-05-25 15:21:41	strit	That's linux in general though.
2021-05-25 15:21:21	fedx	Yah, it technically can work for anything if you try hard enough, but it would not be fun. 
2021-05-25 15:18:44	strit	Kali shouldn't really be used outside those couple of usecases.
2021-05-25 15:17:42	fedx	Agreed, but it also is how you use it.  
2021-05-25 15:15:42	strit	Kali is made for a very specific usecase though. 😉 
2021-05-25 15:14:34	fedx	Thanks so much. I mean there’s Kali?
2021-05-25 15:11:04	strit	Not sure how dangerous putting together a bunch of linux packages can be.... 😉 
2021-05-26 00:27:16	masonbeelimited	My pre-coffee thought of the morning: Microsoft using WSL and allowing GUI apps to run under Windows means there can never be a killer app on linux.
2021-05-26 01:40:01	d-io	We have killer operating systems, though. Microsoft will never achieve something far more fundamental - an operating system that respects its users
2021-05-26 01:41:27	d-io	Most people don't switch to Linux for a few apps anyway, it's a whole bunch of reasons
2021-05-26 02:10:57	masonbeelimited	Linux as an app :) LAAA!
2021-05-26 02:15:28	masonbeelimited	True, I switched to Linux because of interest and it aligned with my software political views (A long long time ago, I can still remember when xp used to make me cry, and i knew that if I had my chance, i could make that hardware dance, and maybe not be spied on for a while. Ms Vista made me shiver, with every update they delivered....etc...)
2021-05-26 02:22:38	irunbash	My hope is that after WSL GUI support is released we can make a pretty compelling argument for targeting Linux as the exclusive desktop platform.
2021-05-26 02:24:32	irunbash	I mean… what company wouldn’t want to have one codebase for Windows, ChromeOS, and this thing a lot of strange people seem to like called Linux.
2021-05-26 02:25:14	d-io	I really doubt it. Do you really expect all people to be able to set up WSL on their computers? It would be black magic to them
2021-05-26 02:25:44	masonbeelimited	Windows and ChromeOS yes, but the Linux GUI market is pretty small.
2021-05-26 02:25:47	d-io	Maybe developer focused apps will be released like that, but that's the best we can hope for
2021-05-26 02:26:26	irunbash	You could just make an installer on windows that sets it up.
2021-05-26 02:29:40	irunbash	Installing is a trivial issue. The real problem I see is moving from a legacy app.
2021-05-26 02:29:55	irunbash	And developer onboarding
2021-05-26 02:29:55	d-io	WSL itself is under Microsoft's control. They won't make it into something that threatens Windows in any way, and losing apps isn't something they will allow to happen
2021-05-26 02:30:18	irunbash	It doesn’t threaten Microsoft tho.
2021-05-26 02:32:55	irunbash	Why would they care if your app is a native windows app or Linux though WSL?
2021-05-26 02:55:18	d-io	Well, it doesn't work like a Windows app with all the features. And I'm not sure that WSL is available on Windows Home editions
2021-05-26 04:09:53	terrestrial-alien	does WSL being under GPL3 and non LPGL make Windows Open.Source too? time for opng!!!
2021-05-26 04:12:31	terrestrial-alien	'cause if Microsoft is contributing code to the Linux Kernel for WSL... that's two masters stuff!
2021-05-26 04:53:44	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Apparently, Oracle a "forever free" cloud tier with Arm / 24Gb ram / 4 vCPU
2021-05-26 04:53:58	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	 * Apparently, Oracle has a "forever free" cloud tier with Arm / 24Gb ram / 4 vCPU
2021-05-26 04:54:48	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Interesting to see if one could run software on there which you'd normally run on the Pi
2021-05-26 04:54:58	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	PiHole in the cloud? Or VPN...
2021-05-26 05:04:20	d-io	> In reply to @carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be
2021-05-26 05:04:20		> Apparently, Oracle a "forever free" cloud tier with Arm /
2021-05-26 05:04:20		> 24Gb ram / 4 vCPU
2021-05-26 05:04:20		Free cloud? What's the benefit for them?
2021-05-26 05:12:38	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Probably a marketting lure
2021-05-26 05:13:06	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Lure you in with the free stuff, hope you buy in later at some point
2021-05-26 05:13:54	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	I signed up and taken a look
2021-05-26 05:14:03	d-io	How is it?
2021-05-26 05:14:17	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Well, it feels like Oracle 
2021-05-26 05:14:37	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	But I can't seem to find the the ARM tier I've read about
2021-05-26 05:15:04	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Maybe because it's not available in the Amsterdam region I'm looking at
2021-05-26 05:15:07	d-io	So no free tier after all?
2021-05-26 05:15:17	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	There seems to be some free stuff
2021-05-26 05:15:39	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Also a funny tongue in cheek "Oh btw, you should check out our Oracle Linux"  when selecting  CentOS
2021-05-26 05:16:14	d-io	Of course... It's like Microsoft annoying people with Edge
2021-05-26 05:16:33	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	<image.png> [https://matrix.wyattjmiller.com:443/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.carroarmato0.be/OtTHgikHZexmCXPTyMkUfBTz]
2021-05-26 05:17:34	d-io	Seems like viewing messages in the current version of FluffyChat is broken
2021-05-26 05:17:47	d-io	* Seems like viewing images in the current version of FluffyChat is broken
2021-05-26 05:18:18	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	It was a gamble for me to paste this in Element on Matrix :D
2021-05-26 05:18:42	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	I'll see if I can upload some images on imgr or the likes
2021-05-26 05:19:14	d-io	> In reply to @carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be
2021-05-26 05:19:14		> It was a gamble for me to paste this in Element on Matrix
2021-05-26 05:19:14		> :D
2021-05-26 05:19:14		Why? It usually works haha
2021-05-26 05:19:24	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Oh ok
2021-05-26 05:19:34	d-io	I'll just check from my desktop, it's okay
2021-05-26 05:19:47	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Was thinking more towards people using a bridge from IRC
2021-05-26 05:20:00	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Not sure what appears there :D
2021-05-26 05:20:10	d-io	Oh yeah, I wonder how bridges work with images on IRC
2021-05-26 05:21:49	d-io	Aha, so you found it
2021-05-26 05:23:07	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Hmm
2021-05-26 05:23:24	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Unfortunately once you've selected your Home Region, you can't change
2021-05-26 05:24:12	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	So can't switch to a US region to check if it's an availability thing with regards to their free arm tier 
2021-05-26 05:29:44	d-io	24 GB of RAM is pretty generous for a free tier
2021-05-26 08:18:06	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	Haven't found it yet
2021-05-26 08:18:17	carroarmato0:matrix.carroarmato0.be	It's all unicorns to me until I see it :)
2021-05-26 10:08:58	sean:thrailkill.cloud	https://www.oracle.com/cloud/free/#always-free
2021-05-26 10:11:31	<--	@dafio:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-26 10:52:07	kusuriya	that seems very oracleish
2021-05-26 10:52:20	kusuriya	"first hit is free kid" -- Uncle Larry
2021-05-26 11:24:40	thornbill	Google Compute and AWS have similar programs 🤷‍♂️
2021-05-26 16:21:49	<--	@fyksen:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-26 16:31:01	<--	@snk:nobeta.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-26 16:39:01	kusuriya	sorta with one exception, AWS' free tier is 1 year, so you need to make a new account every year if you want to keep using it, and GCP's if I remember right is 90 days
2021-05-26 16:39:34	kusuriya	Azure I forget if theirs is also a year but there are limits on their free tier as well but its super easy to get credits for Azure
2021-05-26 16:47:57	paperdigits	The Glimpse editor has gone into hibernation and has archived their github repo
2021-05-26 17:07:16	thornbill	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 17:07:16		> sorta with one exception, AWS' free tier is 1 year, so you
2021-05-26 17:07:16		> need to make a new account every year if you want to keep
2021-05-26 17:07:16		> using it, and GCP's if I remember right is 90 days
2021-05-26 17:07:16		GCP has the free trial but also has “free tier” that is always free. I thought AWS had an equivalent but I’m not 100% sure on that.
2021-05-26 17:07:39	kusuriya	AWS I know for sure doesnt have an always free tier
2021-05-26 17:08:07	kusuriya	Mr Bezos needs those quarters for his Hoard
2021-05-26 17:08:12	thornbill	https://aws.amazon.com/free/
2021-05-26 17:08:31	kusuriya	yeah read the really fine print on that
2021-05-26 17:09:27	drewzero1	mica: Sad news! I really liked the direction they seemed to be going. Blog post from the maintainers about the decision here, for the curious: https://glimpse-editor.org/posts/a-project-on-hiatus
2021-05-26 17:09:32	kusuriya	but TIL lamba is now always free
2021-05-26 17:10:30	paperdigits	> In reply to @drewzero1:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:10:30		> mica: Sad news! I really liked the direction they seemed
2021-05-26 17:10:30		> to be going. Blog post from the maintainers about the
2021-05-26 17:10:30		> decision here, for the curious: https://glimpse-
2021-05-26 17:10:30		> editor.org/posts/a-project-on-hiatus
2021-05-26 17:10:30		Yes, I never had a problem with the gimp name, but glimpse at least did work
2021-05-26 17:10:59	paperdigits	Suck that it seems oracle, the dude's workplace was keeping tabs on what he was doing in his free time.
2021-05-26 17:11:19	paperdigits	That's some late stage capitalism for ya
2021-05-26 17:17:01	drewzero1	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:17:01		> Yes, I never had a problem with the gimp name, but glimpse
2021-05-26 17:17:01		> at least did work
2021-05-26 17:17:01		Yeah, I didn't love the name. I started using it as a teen and my mom was very worried about what kind of weird software I was downloading. (As if it wasn't hard enough to switch to free/alternative software in the '00s!)
2021-05-26 17:17:01		It might be stuff that's also in the latest versions of GIMP, but I liked the UX in Glimpse.
2021-05-26 17:17:58	paperdigits	> In reply to @drewzero1:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> Yeah, I didn't love the name. I started using it as a teen
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> and my mom was very worried about what kind of weird
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> software I was downloading. (As if it wasn't hard enough
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> to switch to free/alternative software in the '00s!)  It
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> might be stuff that's also in the latest versions of GIMP,
2021-05-26 17:17:58		> but I liked the UX in Glimpse.
2021-05-26 17:17:58		Glimpse never changed any UX or UI from gimp, they patched out the gimp name
2021-05-26 17:19:47	drewzero1	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:19:47		> Glimpse never changed any UX or UI from gimp, they patched
2021-05-26 17:19:47		> out the gimp name
2021-05-26 17:19:47		Well then, props to GIMP for improving their interface!
2021-05-26 17:21:10	paperdigits	> In reply to @drewzero1:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:21:10		> Well then, props to GIMP for improving their interface!
2021-05-26 17:21:10		Gtk 3 is on the way! Just in time for gtk 4 :D
2021-05-26 17:21:26	corrinado	I didn't have anything against glimpse as a project, but I never felt that what they were offering was compelling in any way. Perhaps that shows my age? I understand their reasoning for attempting a change to the name, but imho it needed to be combined with some other improvements before I could be enticed to give it a go.
2021-05-26 17:22:56	paperdigits	> In reply to @corrinado:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> I didn't have anything against glimpse as a project, but I
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> never felt that what they were offering was compelling in
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> any way. Perhaps that shows my age? I understand their
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> reasoning for attempting a change to the name, but imho it
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> needed to be combined with some other improvements before
2021-05-26 17:22:56		> I could be enticed to give it a go.
2021-05-26 17:22:56		If anything, it gave people who hate the name gimp a place to contribute and put their energy in positive direction.
2021-05-26 17:23:36	konomi	Biggest problem with gimp is even trying to suggest using it in any work environment, you'll get the glare of your life the second you mention the name along with a "we can't use something with that name in our organisation" I honestly just wish they'd change it it hurts adoption massively
2021-05-26 17:24:05	infoseclibsoc	Check out Glimpse
2021-05-26 17:24:31	infoseclibsoc	It’s a rebranded and slightly redesigned version of what is essentially Gimp
2021-05-26 17:24:45	konomi	Literally just a post a few messages above how glimpse is more than likely a dead project now
2021-05-26 17:25:00	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	> In reply to @drewzero1:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:25:00		> mica: Sad news! I really liked the direction they seemed
2021-05-26 17:25:00		> to be going. Blog post from the maintainers about the
2021-05-26 17:25:00		> decision here, for the curious: https://glimpse-
2021-05-26 17:25:00		> editor.org/posts/a-project-on-hiatus
2021-05-26 17:25:00		infoseclibsoc: ^
2021-05-26 17:25:02	infoseclibsoc	Ah you did? Opps lol
2021-05-26 17:27:13	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> Biggest problem with gimp is even trying to suggest using
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> it in any work environment, you'll get the glare of your
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> life the second you mention the name along with a "we
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> can't use something with that name in our organisation" I
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> honestly just wish they'd change it it hurts adoption
2021-05-26 17:27:13		> massively
2021-05-26 17:27:13		That's what glimpse was... But not enough people wanted to keep it going.
2021-05-26 17:27:29	infoseclibsoc	Ah man, shame
2021-05-26 17:27:34	infoseclibsoc	It was much better looking
2021-05-26 17:27:44	paperdigits	Seemed like it was a one-ish person show
2021-05-26 17:27:55	paperdigits	infoseclibsoc: they changed none of the ux or ui
2021-05-26 17:28:01	konomi	That's because it's easier for orgs to throw some money at adobe
2021-05-26 17:28:06	paperdigits	So I dunno how it was better looking
2021-05-26 17:28:22	infoseclibsoc	Honestly though, isn’t there a simple skin to get Gimp to resemble PS and then it’s a job done?
2021-05-26 17:28:23	simondanerd	I think that glimpse is a viable option. I think I may start using it in the place of GIMP. Too bad.
2021-05-26 17:28:50	simondanerd	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:28:50		> Honestly though, isn’t there a simple skin to get Gimp to
2021-05-26 17:28:50		> resemble PS and then it’s a job done?
2021-05-26 17:28:50		Yes, it's quite easy to move things around to make it look like PS
2021-05-26 17:28:54	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:28:54		> Honestly though, isn’t there a simple skin to get Gimp to
2021-05-26 17:28:54		> resemble PS and then it’s a job done?
2021-05-26 17:28:54		That will just be more.confusing because it isn't exactly like ps
2021-05-26 17:29:12	konomi	It never ended up in Debian repos for me so stuck with gimp
2021-05-26 17:29:23	simondanerd	True. It is how I started using it tho.
2021-05-26 17:29:28	infoseclibsoc	Professionally speaking people I know learn a tool and then that’s ‘what they know’ for a very long time afterwards…is there an officially skin/mod that does this perfectly ?
2021-05-26 17:29:29	paperdigits	Also... Did you see if you want to save a jpeg in PS now you get to use the Export As menu... Just like gimp ;)
2021-05-26 17:30:06	konomi	Replicating the most annoying feature of gimp nice work adobe
2021-05-26 17:30:08	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:30:08		> Professionally speaking people I know learn a tool and
2021-05-26 17:30:08		> then that’s ‘what they know’ for a very long time
2021-05-26 17:30:08		> afterwards…is there an officially skin/mod that does this
2021-05-26 17:30:08		> perfectly ?
2021-05-26 17:30:08		No and there never will be one that does it perfectly. There isn't feature parity
2021-05-26 17:30:38	infoseclibsoc	(With the exception of different form factors: many have jumped ship to ProCreaten on iPad - it’s a $9.99 one off charge and they rave about it )
2021-05-26 17:30:48	infoseclibsoc	*Procreate, sorry
2021-05-26 17:30:50	paperdigits	Gimp doesn't want to be "free Photoshop" and it isn't I don't care what your mom's cousin's son's friend told you
2021-05-26 17:31:17	paperdigits	;P
2021-05-26 17:31:36	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:31:36		> No and there never will be one that does it perfectly.
2021-05-26 17:31:36		> There isn't feature parity
2021-05-26 17:31:36		They could grey out the box for entries that don’t exist perhaps? At least people would ‘know’ easily what’s missing…. Just a thought
2021-05-26 17:31:56	konomi	Don't worry people care about what gimp wants about as much as gimp cares about changing their project name
2021-05-26 17:32:29	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:32:29		> They could grey out the box for entries that don’t exist
2021-05-26 17:32:29		> perhaps? At least people would ‘know’ easily what’s
2021-05-26 17:32:29		> missing…. Just a thought
2021-05-26 17:32:29		Patches accepted!
2021-05-26 17:33:07	konomi	And honestly I only use it for the same reason most people use Photoshop I just got used to it
2021-05-26 17:33:16	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:33:16		> Patches accepted!
2021-05-26 17:33:16		It’s not about code: it’s about design/UX choices
2021-05-26 17:33:39	paperdigits	Code makes ux and ui
2021-05-26 17:34:13	konomi	Its also more like sub par free Photoshop than anything
2021-05-26 17:34:29	paperdigits	Easy to say "just do this" but harder to actually do it
2021-05-26 17:35:20	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:35:20		> Its also more like sub par free Photoshop than anything
2021-05-26 17:35:20		Works for me just fine... And apparently good enough for you too
2021-05-26 17:35:43	konomi	Yes it's a very good free photoshop
2021-05-26 17:35:44	paperdigits	I've been seeking this person who uses every Photoshop feature for years
2021-05-26 17:36:11	konomi	I hope to replace it with a slightly better free photoshop if anything takes it's place
2021-05-26 17:36:58	paperdigits	You can use krita
2021-05-26 17:36:59	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:36:59		> Code makes ux and ui
2021-05-26 17:36:59		That’s a meaningless observation: The design vision informs the code being written. It comes first, or should do
2021-05-26 17:37:30	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:37:30		> That’s a meaningless observation: The design vision
2021-05-26 17:37:30		> informs the code being written. It comes first, or should
2021-05-26 17:37:30		> do
2021-05-26 17:37:30		About as meaningless as "make it like Photoshop" yes ;)
2021-05-26 17:38:04	konomi	I mean they did get around  to the single user interface after being hounded for years
2021-05-26 17:38:05	infoseclibsoc	If you worked at the Royal Academy if Arts in London like I do then you’d perhaps have a leg to stand on….
2021-05-26 17:38:12	infoseclibsoc	*of
2021-05-26 17:38:20	konomi	So make it like photoshop won out on that one
2021-05-26 17:38:29	paperdigits	I don't need to flex my credentials but OK.
2021-05-26 17:38:48	konomi	*single window interface
2021-05-26 17:38:50	infoseclibsoc	Their entire student post graduate department repeat the same thing to be, every year: why learn this? It’s complex, it’s ‘new’, design is poor, no parity etc
2021-05-26 17:39:05	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:39:05		> *single window interface
2021-05-26 17:39:05		Already there and default in the latest release
2021-05-26 17:39:22	paperdigits	Has been for a while.
2021-05-26 17:39:59	infoseclibsoc	I mean, making bold claims requires experience or expertise in getting user feedback. I’d say defending free photoshop for the clearly stated objections of actual designers seems a strange hill to die on. Right?
2021-05-26 17:40:18	konomi	Yes and I remember when people asked for it and how long gimp decided it wasn't needed
2021-05-26 17:40:46	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:40:46		> Yes and I remember when people asked for it and how long
2021-05-26 17:40:46		> gimp decided it wasn't needed
2021-05-26 17:40:46		OK so we'll keep living in the past or... ?
2021-05-26 17:41:33	konomi	I'm firmly in the present but that wasn't really the topic the point was gimp has already become more like photoshop
2021-05-26 17:42:05	konomi	So while the phrase "more like photoshop" might annoy them they have obviously made gimp more like photoshop
2021-05-26 17:42:17	konomi	And that change is one example of them doing so
2021-05-26 17:42:31	paperdigits	OK good.
2021-05-26 17:44:19	infoseclibsoc	Low user adoption will kill Gimp: Photoshop is the industry standard and people are used to it, rightly or wrongly
2021-05-26 17:44:41	konomi	One other was but don't quote me I think the fuzzy select tool used to be 30 by default it was changed to 10 which made it behave more like photoshop
2021-05-26 17:45:23	konomi	I don't think we'll ever get a nice open source image editor at least not one that will see wide adoption
2021-05-26 17:46:01	paperdigits	Its nice for me I use it all the time. It has all the features I need.
2021-05-26 17:46:02	infoseclibsoc	Adobe Lightroom also managed to establish itself as an industry standard DAM (digital asset manager) that is hard to get photographers to move away from: and the integrations with PS make that even harder to sever
2021-05-26 17:46:30	paperdigits	Lightroom seems to be a good DAM,  but the editor is not great
2021-05-26 17:46:40	paperdigits	But all DAM software is bad
2021-05-26 17:47:22	paperdigits	Like... People have some whacky workflows then say "why don't you support that?"
2021-05-26 17:47:29	paperdigits	Photographers are the worst.
2021-05-26 17:48:36	infoseclibsoc	It’s slow, poorly optimised but is the only reason I have win 10 still : the Linux alternatives are poor
2021-05-26 17:49:03	konomi	I can't honestly speak about the current offerings I've used gimp for so long and not touched photoshop for a long time, friends I know though sooner pirate photoshop than use gimp
2021-05-26 17:49:30	paperdigits	Yeah but people never want to relearn tooling
2021-05-26 17:49:33	corrinado	I get the enterprise adoption argument at base. I suppose I've never met an enterprise that was using anything other than PS on macs. The only GIMP I ever saw at users desks were outside of the graphics arts/marketing departments and were individual choices based on the fact that the company wasn't willing to purchase PS licenses for non-graphics artists. A lot of my generation was ok with initialisms (for right or wrong). But I get the arguments against it.
2021-05-26 17:49:50	paperdigits	Tools should be a one-time time investment and then work the same forever
2021-05-26 17:50:14	konomi	All the guides they read are for photoshop, trying to get those guides to work in gimp at times is next to impossible
2021-05-26 17:50:18	paperdigits	Like a shovel
2021-05-26 17:50:40	paperdigits	Maybe I got lucky, but my professors taught concepts
2021-05-26 17:50:59	paperdigits	So when I left Photoshop for gimp, it was learning some menus and clicking stuff
2021-05-26 17:51:12	paperdigits	But I knew the conceptual stuff so things still made sense.
2021-05-26 17:51:22	infoseclibsoc	Adding folders into LR and then have that folder structure abstracted away into dates is excellent: Capture One copied it, they all did. The Linux alternatives just show you a folder view and it gets messy. Not to mention the. Video support on Linux options is poor and doesn’t integrate directly into Gimp etc. And then there’s the legacy migrations issue: you can’t get your edits off if PS into any Linux alternative and have them all imported
2021-05-26 17:53:14	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:53:14		> So when I left Photoshop for gimp, it was learning some
2021-05-26 17:53:14		> menus and clicking stuff
2021-05-26 17:53:14		Muscle memory is a real thing: the fact that Adobe can hike up the prices AND STILL make $8 billion in profit means people don’t want to switch and it’s painful to do so.
2021-05-26 17:53:23	paperdigits	You can sort by date in digiKam and darktable
2021-05-26 17:54:21	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:54:21		> All the guides they read are for photoshop, trying to get
2021-05-26 17:54:21		> those guides to work in gimp at times is next to
2021-05-26 17:54:21		> impossible
2021-05-26 17:54:21		Yeah, the entire ecosystem of training is a real boon to PS users
2021-05-26 17:55:05	bmo.dev	It's been a minute since I used Photoshop, but don't most people use the feature set of CS5 anyway?  I've heard they've done some cool AI stuff, but most of the standard tools have been there for a while
2021-05-26 17:55:17	konomi	Yep get the fast learning experience vs spending multiple hours wondering why your result doesn't look the same as the example
2021-05-26 17:55:50	paperdigits	Translating stuff between applications isn't that difficult if you understand the concepts and what you're trying to accomplish. But most don't.
2021-05-26 17:56:00	konomi	Image editor hard mode popped into my head for a second
2021-05-26 17:56:03	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:56:03		> Yep get the fast learning experience vs spending multiple
2021-05-26 17:56:03		> hours wondering why your result doesn't look the same as
2021-05-26 17:56:03		> the example
2021-05-26 17:56:03		Pirate it, is the easy answer. But it still doesn’t run on Linux so you need Windows :(
2021-05-26 17:56:04	paperdigits	Sadly we now teach button clicking instead of concepts
2021-05-26 17:56:17	corrinado	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:56:17		> All the guides they read are for photoshop, trying to get
2021-05-26 17:56:17		> those guides to work in gimp at times is next to
2021-05-26 17:56:17		> impossible
2021-05-26 17:56:17		To mica's point: Concepts are powerful and are a great way to translate guides to different tools. Unfortunately a lot of muscle memory gets in the way all too often.
2021-05-26 17:57:06	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:57:06		> Translating stuff between applications isn't that
2021-05-26 17:57:06		> difficult if you understand the concepts and what you're
2021-05-26 17:57:06		> trying to accomplish. But most don't.
2021-05-26 17:57:06		That’s a Dev talking: people don’t work that way. That’s why Apple make billions. It’s the UX and UI.
2021-05-26 17:57:15	paperdigits	Sorry but we can't help you if all you know is how to perform a 36 button click procedure in photo shop but have no idea what you're actually doing.
2021-05-26 17:57:41	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:57:41		> Sorry but we can't help you if all you know is how to
2021-05-26 17:57:41		> perform a 36 button click procedure in photo shop but have
2021-05-26 17:57:41		> no idea what you're actually doing.
2021-05-26 17:57:41		Then they’ll pay Adobe lol
2021-05-26 17:57:46	konomi	Not everyone wants to get deep down into the theory of their tools though
2021-05-26 17:57:50	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:57:50		> That’s a Dev talking: people don’t work that way. That’s
2021-05-26 17:57:50		> why Apple make billions. It’s the UX and UI.
2021-05-26 17:57:50		Im not a dev but ok
2021-05-26 17:58:09	paperdigits	Its the theory of photography, not the tools
2021-05-26 17:58:45	konomi	Eh I think apples ui can be quite confusing at times they do do it right at times
2021-05-26 17:58:45	paperdigits	Adobe has done an excellent job of abstracting away everything difficult into a one slider solution that works great until it fails.
2021-05-26 17:58:49	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:58:49		> Not everyone wants to get deep down into the theory of
2021-05-26 17:58:49		> their tools though
2021-05-26 17:58:49		Poor software design means they have to: it’s utter madness to even argue people should have to and is why adoption is so low in comparison .
2021-05-26 17:59:14	konomi	But their popularity isn't based entirely off of good ux/ui
2021-05-26 17:59:33	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 17:59:33		> Adobe has done an excellent job of abstracting away
2021-05-26 17:59:33		> everything difficult into a one slider solution that works
2021-05-26 17:59:33		> great until it fails.
2021-05-26 17:59:33		£120k a year job later though and it’s not your problem: support picks up the tab and life goes on.
2021-05-26 18:00:01	konomi	From what the users of say iphones tell me they go apple because it's familiar easy to get help with and repairers are easier to find
2021-05-26 18:00:09	konomi	Monoculture can be useful
2021-05-26 18:01:06	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:01:06		> £120k a year job later though and it’s not your problem:
2021-05-26 18:01:06		> support picks up the tab and life goes on.
2021-05-26 18:01:06		I don't understand what this means.
2021-05-26 18:01:12	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:01:12		> But their popularity isn't based entirely off of good
2021-05-26 18:01:12		> ux/ui
2021-05-26 18:01:12		True: marketing , training ,  social media , financial incentives to institutions to adopt their software etc. They all play a part. But I mean in terms of getting people to switch , familiarity is really attracting
2021-05-26 18:01:48	konomi	Where as your weird not Samsung android phone is going to be a lot harder to manage
2021-05-26 18:01:56	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:01:56		> I don't understand what this means.
2021-05-26 18:01:56		PS works fine: my job using it means I can deal with the ‘fails’ as they come but I’m still earning . Gimp doesn’t give me, or others. , this benefit
2021-05-26 18:02:05	paperdigits	All the training material is written by adobe and they loop.you in with student discounts and whatever
2021-05-26 18:02:20	kusuriya	yep thats how a lot of places get you
2021-05-26 18:02:25	kusuriya	get the kids young
2021-05-26 18:02:42	paperdigits	PS is just a obtuse as GIMP
2021-05-26 18:02:59	paperdigits	You need to know what you want before you get in the application.
2021-05-26 18:03:08	kusuriya	yep but you learned it in school and your first job made you use it, etc etc etc
2021-05-26 18:03:24	konomi	Yep more learning resources
2021-05-26 18:03:41	paperdigits	Yes, this is the same problem as windows vs Linux
2021-05-26 18:03:53	konomi	I do agree PS is obtuse to use gimp shares that attribute with it
2021-05-26 18:03:59	kusuriya	thats how Microsoft got to be king for office software too
2021-05-26 18:04:13	kusuriya	got everyone used to Word and Outlook in school or at work
2021-05-26 18:04:18	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:04:18		> You need to know what you want before you get in the
2021-05-26 18:04:18		> application.
2021-05-26 18:04:18		Context is everything though: PS is the incumbent, Gimp isn’t. It needs to do different things to succeed to PS. Adobe price gouging still doesn’t seem to upset it’s user base !
2021-05-26 18:04:20	kusuriya	and people chase what they know
2021-05-26 18:04:21	konomi	I was trying to do multiple selects on gimp for exampe
2021-05-26 18:04:53	konomi	You'd think you could just select multiple layers at once to add selects or just switch layers and add another select
2021-05-26 18:05:03	konomi	Nope you have to save your select as a path
2021-05-26 18:05:21	konomi	They apply it to the other layer with that select
2021-05-26 18:05:28	paperdigits	What do you mean by "selects"?
2021-05-26 18:05:41	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:05:41		> You'd think you could just select multiple layers at once
2021-05-26 18:05:41		> to add selects or just switch layers and add another
2021-05-26 18:05:41		> select
2021-05-26 18:05:41		Art grad student > Uninstall Gimp lol
2021-05-26 18:06:11	paperdigits	Man I can't wait to go to photography conferences.
2021-05-26 18:06:16	konomi	Web searching for help got me no where just kept trying things until I found something that worked
2021-05-26 18:06:16	infoseclibsoc	Workflow issues like this are the most infuriating
2021-05-26 18:06:24	paperdigits	Its going to be a shitshow
2021-05-26 18:07:03	konomi	I don't know how PS would do what I wanted but gimp does it terribly
2021-05-26 18:07:11	infoseclibsoc	I suspect Blender doesn’t have these issues, being more established as a viable industry tool?
2021-05-26 18:07:50	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:07:50		> I suspect Blender doesn’t have these issues, being more
2021-05-26 18:07:50		> established as a viable industry tool?
2021-05-26 18:07:50		It took 15 years of hard, dedicated work to get there, but yes, sort of
2021-05-26 18:08:08	kusuriya	Blender actually does have similar issues but they are not as bad because of 15 years of hard work getting companies to adopt it
2021-05-26 18:08:16	konomi	Least adobe won't get that, hopefully?
2021-05-26 18:08:28	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:08:28		> Web searching for help got me no where just kept trying
2021-05-26 18:08:28		> things until I found something that worked
2021-05-26 18:08:28		Web searches for Gimp issues make me contemplate becoming a acetic monk
2021-05-26 18:09:13	kusuriya	and it was only really made possible because autodesk started slacking and doing very distasteful things and created an opening
2021-05-26 18:09:25	paperdigits	Blender is just barely getting established as an industry tool
2021-05-26 18:09:29	kusuriya	Gimp missed the similar opening with adobe sadly
2021-05-26 18:09:30	konomi	yeah the documentation for processes you might commonly want to do on gimp suck
2021-05-26 18:10:20	kusuriya	that was when adobe started making everyone go to Adobe Cloud, that would have been the time to go and showcase that with a bit of retraining you could get what adobe was now trying to turn into a service and get back your workflow
2021-05-26 18:10:49	konomi	computing making geeks hate clouds of all shapes and sizes
2021-05-26 18:10:53	kusuriya	the window has passed though so now its back to uphill battle
2021-05-26 18:10:55	konomi	I personally loath that freaking term
2021-05-26 18:11:15	konomi	generally follow it up with "on the cloud, you mean someone else's computer?"
2021-05-26 18:11:50	kusuriya	well artsy folks dont like the idea of my tools will change on a whim and I have to pay a subscription fee for the privilege of my tools changing 🤮
2021-05-26 18:12:01	infoseclibsoc	SaaS is much better as a term
2021-05-26 18:12:15	kusuriya	I only really got to know that feeling after working in a game studio
2021-05-26 18:12:22	konomi	I've heard I can't recall correctly but someone might know
2021-05-26 18:12:25	kusuriya	Artists are pickier than cats
2021-05-26 18:12:27	paperdigits	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 18:12:27		> that was when adobe started making everyone go to Adobe
2021-05-26 18:12:27		> Cloud, that would have been the time to go and showcase
2021-05-26 18:12:27		> that with a bit of retraining you could get what adobe was
2021-05-26 18:12:27		> now trying to turn into a service and get back your
2021-05-26 18:12:27		> workflow
2021-05-26 18:12:27		Actually we have quite a few new darktable users that left for this reason
2021-05-26 18:13:01	kusuriya	yep IMO darktable actually did capitalize on that pretty good and got a lot of people away from I think its lightroom
2021-05-26 18:13:09	paperdigits	And I suspect we will have more when Light room Classic stops being developed.
2021-05-26 18:13:27	konomi	honestly I think people get that having their image editor being cloud based isn't really beneficial to them
2021-05-26 18:13:37	konomi	mostly when the fees roll in
2021-05-26 18:13:38	paperdigits	And you get the Lightroom in a web browser with adboe cloud storage
2021-05-26 18:13:44	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:13:44		> And I suspect we will have more when Light room Classic
2021-05-26 18:13:44		> stops being developed.
2021-05-26 18:13:44		Not liking that thought
2021-05-26 18:13:45	kusuriya	but to be fair also darktable was better than light room at the time you just had to get over the hump
2021-05-26 18:14:06	paperdigits	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:14:06		> Not liking that thought
2021-05-26 18:14:06		Obviously where they're going
2021-05-26 18:14:18	konomi	"hang on I brought this software 3 years ago and I'm still using it 5 years after that what am I paying for?"
2021-05-26 18:14:19	kusuriya	and the community was better at helping people over the hump than the gimp community has been IMO
2021-05-26 18:14:24	konomi	the cogs started turning
2021-05-26 18:14:31	paperdigits	So you can rent LR and pay them.for storage
2021-05-26 18:14:39	paperdigits	It'll be great or something
2021-05-26 18:15:09	paperdigits	My SO is a full adobe suite user
2021-05-26 18:15:11	kusuriya	yep thats where they want to be and since so many companies did just that when they moved photoshop to adobe cloud SaaS only that is  the way they will keep going
2021-05-26 18:15:16	paperdigits	Their cloud thing is horrific
2021-05-26 18:15:25	konomi	also anyone caught on a bad internet connection will probably regret web based apps and the cloud pretty quickly
2021-05-26 18:15:29	kusuriya	oh yeah I havent heard a single person that LIKES adobe cloud
2021-05-26 18:15:39	kusuriya	they just deal with it
2021-05-26 18:15:42	paperdigits	They can't even sync fucking files
2021-05-26 18:15:57	paperdigits	The cloud sync stalls like twice a day
2021-05-26 18:16:02	simondanerd	That's true. It's a huge RAM hog at 500+ MB at idle.
2021-05-26 18:16:27	konomi	when you're glad you're a software dev and not a graphic designer
2021-05-26 18:16:37	kusuriya	it also thrashes your IO to do simple file syncs when it works
2021-05-26 18:16:42	konomi	it honestly sounds worse
2021-05-26 18:17:39	kusuriya	I remember having to change out people's scratch devices when I worked in the game studio because a Xeon at 3GHz couldnt keep up because it was waiting on file IO constantly
2021-05-26 18:17:41	paperdigits	Well, alternatives exist and there are.communities to help you switch
2021-05-26 18:17:55	paperdigits	We are chillin, doing our thing over here
2021-05-26 18:17:56	kusuriya	we needed to stripe several SSDs together to get it to behave right
2021-05-26 18:18:08	paperdigits	Maybe not as slick as adobe
2021-05-26 18:18:14	paperdigits	But... Freedom
2021-05-26 18:18:18	konomi	should we code better, no the system resources are to blame
2021-05-26 18:18:25	konomi	why can't I spawn 1000 half open connections
2021-05-26 18:18:29	kusuriya	yeah the trick is we are edge cases here where freedom matters
2021-05-26 18:18:31	konomi	terrible admins 0/10
2021-05-26 18:18:49	kusuriya	for a lot of people they couldnt give 2 cares about freedom they just want the software they are used to working
2021-05-26 18:18:58	konomi	sad but true
2021-05-26 18:19:08	kusuriya	or at least what they have been told to use working
2021-05-26 18:19:17	konomi	I am a proponent of sneaking in the freedom while making the software as easy to use as possible
2021-05-26 18:19:35	konomi	hence the rather salty rant about gimp
2021-05-26 18:19:37	paperdigits	At least for photographers, most are solo and choose their own tooling
2021-05-26 18:19:41	paperdigits	So... I dunno
2021-05-26 18:19:45	simondanerd	You could bring in GIMP on a USB drive... That's what I do at school
2021-05-26 18:19:48	kusuriya	freedom is sadly not a desired feature, but making me pay a subscription fee... that hits the average person in the right spot
2021-05-26 18:19:49	konomi	mention pidgin and I might get even more salty :3
2021-05-26 18:19:52	paperdigits	Like I said, the community is here
2021-05-26 18:20:27	konomi	> In reply to @simondanerd:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:20:27		> You could bring in GIMP on a USB drive... That's what I do
2021-05-26 18:20:27		> at school
2021-05-26 18:20:27		that sounds like hacking to me, time to visit the principle
2021-05-26 18:20:34	kusuriya	yeah the community is there but there is a level of outreach that needs to happen and IMO thats where gimp falls down pretty routinely
2021-05-26 18:20:54	konomi	mica: if I a may ask which community?
2021-05-26 18:20:57	paperdigits	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 18:20:57		> yeah the community is there but there is a level of
2021-05-26 18:20:57		> outreach that needs to happen and IMO thats where gimp
2021-05-26 18:20:57		> falls down pretty routinely
2021-05-26 18:20:57		They are doing better
2021-05-26 18:21:05	konomi	like is there a specific one I've just never found?
2021-05-26 18:21:09	kusuriya	they are improving
2021-05-26 18:21:19	konomi	talking about gimp of course
2021-05-26 18:21:19	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:21:19		> mica: if I a may ask which community?
2021-05-26 18:21:19		For photography, https://discuss.pixls.us
2021-05-26 18:21:33	kusuriya	but now they have to wait for the next break if they ever get one, hopefully it will be as adobe tries to force everything to *aaS
2021-05-26 18:21:44	kusuriya	but adobe is sorta slow boiling that frog
2021-05-26 18:21:48	konomi	isn't discuss a bit on the nose for an open source peep?
2021-05-26 18:22:03	paperdigits	Discuss is the URL for our forum
2021-05-26 18:22:18	paperdigits	PIXLS.US is the community
2021-05-26 18:22:21	konomi	ah my bad 8 am and insomia I derped
2021-05-26 18:22:37	paperdigits	We have tutorials and blogs and what not
2021-05-26 18:23:08	konomi	oh this does look nice thanks for linking
2021-05-26 18:23:30	kusuriya	but yeah photographers are a bit of an easy one to hit because they do get to usually determine their full stack
2021-05-26 18:23:34	paperdigits	We make photos and software
2021-05-26 18:23:39	konomi	I'm not super into image editing I just want to be able to open gimp and do something a little beyond resizing an image without running and screaming into the night
2021-05-26 18:23:57	kusuriya	when you get into things like graphic designers or games artists they pick what the Producer of art uses
2021-05-26 18:24:04	paperdigits	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 18:24:04		> but yeah photographers are a bit of an easy one to hit
2021-05-26 18:24:04		> because they do get to usually determine their full stack
2021-05-26 18:24:04		I'm a photographer, so I work with my tools
2021-05-26 18:24:28	paperdigits	I have professional friends who use only foss
2021-05-26 18:24:34	kusuriya	like the studio I worked in, the entire work flow top to bottom was what the Art producer used for decades
2021-05-26 18:24:35	paperdigits	Inkscape and kdenlive
2021-05-26 18:24:57	konomi	I only use open source atm I'd like to say foss but that's super hard to do
2021-05-26 18:25:09	konomi	points at nvidia gpu
2021-05-26 18:25:11	kusuriya	so 3dStudio Max, Photoshop, Lightroom, AfterEffects, and some software I always forget for light and shadow calculations
2021-05-26 18:25:21	konomi	points at mmo that I really like playing
2021-05-26 18:25:35	paperdigits	Well nvidia... Ugh
2021-05-26 18:25:36	paperdigits	Haha
2021-05-26 18:25:56	kusuriya	it was painful being the tech for that sometimes
2021-05-26 18:25:54	konomi	points at firmware that i have no clue about but is definitely plotting to kill me in my sleep
2021-05-26 18:26:01	paperdigits	kusuriya: yeah your studio has to be open to changr
2021-05-26 18:26:09	paperdigits	* kusuriya: yeah your studio has to be open to change
2021-05-26 18:26:33	paperdigits	Blender is getting good traction in the gaming space
2021-05-26 18:26:34	konomi	mica: I want an ati card I already have to do a lot of work to play my games with this card but yeah we all know how fun gfx cards are to get atm
2021-05-26 18:26:38	kusuriya	mica: yep most studios are not sadly because one person gets to dictate them so you have to convince them there is a better way
2021-05-26 18:26:39	konomi	sorry amd not ati
2021-05-26 18:26:58	paperdigits	I hope Godot will soon too, especially with a lot of gaming engines wanting a cut of the profit instead of licensing fees
2021-05-26 18:27:26	konomi	I like my mmos I'm going to be stuck with them being non free for a very long time
2021-05-26 18:27:55	kusuriya	I did that a bit a the studio I worked at and they ended up eventually using opensource tools for smaller parts of the system, and switching all non art version control from Perforce to git
2021-05-26 18:28:05	kusuriya	art version control will probably forever remain in perforce though
2021-05-26 18:28:25	paperdigits	Oh god perforce
2021-05-26 18:28:32	paperdigits	Sorry for you
2021-05-26 18:28:36	kusuriya	yep but for binary data there is nothing better
2021-05-26 18:28:51	kusuriya	the art repo in git we stopped the import at 500TB
2021-05-26 18:28:57	kusuriya	in perforce it was 25TB
2021-05-26 18:29:04	paperdigits	I like git annex
2021-05-26 18:29:15	paperdigits	But that might be too esoteric for most
2021-05-26 18:29:26	paperdigits	All my raw files are in git annex
2021-05-26 18:29:26	idtn	subversion isn't terrible for binary art assets
2021-05-26 18:29:31	kusuriya	it didnt work well with how many people we had checking in
2021-05-26 18:29:31	idtn	it's not the hotness but it's FOSS
2021-05-26 18:29:36	konomi	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 18:29:36		> the art repo in git we stopped the import at 500TB
2021-05-26 18:29:36		I'm sorry did you say 500tb of data in a git repo?
2021-05-26 18:29:43	kusuriya	Konomi (She/Her): yes
2021-05-26 18:29:54	paperdigits	Probably on windows too
2021-05-26 18:29:56	simondanerd	Yikes...
2021-05-26 18:30:03	konomi	the stunned look doesn't come through on text but I assure you I have it right now
2021-05-26 18:30:07	kusuriya	the game is 10 years old, has 10 years worth of versioned art assets
2021-05-26 18:30:41	kusuriya	and being a racing game the way they have the art assets constructed is basically like you would build a car
2021-05-26 18:30:51	simondanerd	Time for a backup in archives? 
2021-05-26 18:30:52	kusuriya	so there are pistons, and carbs, tires, etc, etc
2021-05-26 18:31:08	kusuriya	cant backup data youre using
2021-05-26 18:31:19	kusuriya	well cant delete data youre using
2021-05-26 18:31:22	konomi	did none of you sleep ;p
2021-05-26 18:31:34	kusuriya	its a game studio, sleep isnt allowed
2021-05-26 18:31:41	simondanerd	Oh. It's being used... That's a big game
2021-05-26 18:31:49	kusuriya	yeah its Forza
2021-05-26 18:32:01	simondanerd	👀
2021-05-26 18:32:07	konomi	ah you're not going to get into trouble for telling us this are you?
2021-05-26 18:32:18	kusuriya	nope
2021-05-26 18:32:20	simondanerd	(we won't tell)
2021-05-26 18:32:21	kusuriya	all of it is mostly stale
2021-05-26 18:32:27	konomi	just checking
2021-05-26 18:32:31	kusuriya	I havent been under that NDA for almost 5 years now
2021-05-26 18:32:40	konomi	companies tend to be a little, well mean?
2021-05-26 18:32:46	idtn	perforce in game dev isn't a secret I guess
2021-05-26 18:32:56	kusuriya	yeah
2021-05-26 18:33:00	kusuriya	on both counts
2021-05-26 18:33:15	konomi	I just like making sure the people I am talking to don't end up in trouble ;p
2021-05-26 18:33:24	kusuriya	there is legally not a ton they could do at this point even if they wanted to be mean
2021-05-26 18:33:43	konomi	so on a scale of 1 to 10 how much did that gaming company make you want to leap off of something tall?
2021-05-26 18:33:46	kusuriya	they would do it and I would ask for my 5 years of compensation
2021-05-26 18:33:50	kusuriya	then everyone would walk away
2021-05-26 18:33:59	kusuriya	12
2021-05-26 18:34:04	konomi	figured
2021-05-26 18:34:13	idtn	c r u n c h
2021-05-26 18:34:15	kusuriya	the studio wasnt bad, compared to other studios
2021-05-26 18:34:26	konomi	honestly being a software dev is pretty terrible in general
2021-05-26 18:34:30	kusuriya	but the average age is 25 and the expectations are high
2021-05-26 18:34:33	konomi	I regret not getting into psychology
2021-05-26 18:34:59	kusuriya	and nobody has any emphasis on anything but programming so being a systems guy there
2021-05-26 18:35:12	konomi	companies from my experience seem to want to get devs now burn them out and just hire again
2021-05-26 18:36:01	kusuriya	game companies are the worst for it
2021-05-26 18:36:10	konomi	I've had it happen to me and anecdotally a bunch of people I know
2021-05-26 18:36:12	kusuriya	once you get out of startups and game companies things are getting better
2021-05-26 18:36:13	idtn	it depends on the org, some can be good to be a dev in
2021-05-26 18:36:16	idtn	people tend to stay for years
2021-05-26 18:36:21	idtn	where I'm at
2021-05-26 18:36:34	konomi	unicorn orgs are rare ;p
2021-05-26 18:36:40	kusuriya	it depends heavily on the org and managers though idtn is right
2021-05-26 18:36:42	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:36:42		> companies from my experience seem to want to get devs now
2021-05-26 18:36:42		> burn them out and just hire again
2021-05-26 18:36:42		Capitalism. It sucks balls
2021-05-26 18:36:43	idtn	no, just boring I think
2021-05-26 18:36:53	idtn	stick with boring companies
2021-05-26 18:37:02	kusuriya	ive found it comes down to average age of the workforce
2021-05-26 18:36:57	konomi	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:36:57		> Capitalism. It sucks balls
2021-05-26 18:36:57		apparently very poorly too
2021-05-26 18:37:29	kusuriya	so right around 30 you get companies that put more emphesis on growing people and making sure they dont burn out
2021-05-26 18:37:35	idtn	actually, I'll rephrase, get away from companies based out of the valley and it can be better
2021-05-26 18:37:58	kusuriya	and I assume its because so many people probably have families, kids, etc, etc, etc, and their management also has those things
2021-05-26 18:38:00	konomi	kusuriya: I feel like that's going to be the exception rather than the rule for software devs though
2021-05-26 18:38:03	kusuriya	so you get more sympathy
2021-05-26 18:38:11	infoseclibsoc	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:38:11		> apparently very poorly too
2021-05-26 18:38:11		Hate the system : fighting hard to change it every day though. Workers are expendable and left to rot as things currently stand
2021-05-26 18:38:14	kusuriya	hasnt been in my case
2021-05-26 18:38:31	konomi	> In reply to @infoseclibsoc:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:38:31		> Hate the system : fighting hard to change it every day
2021-05-26 18:38:31		> though. Workers are expendable and left to rot as things
2021-05-26 18:38:31		> currently stand
2021-05-26 18:38:31		with you on that just don't feel like ranting about it right now
2021-05-26 18:38:39	kusuriya	Ive found dealing with software orgs the younger the org, and the closer to Silicon Valley they are the more likely they are to be turn and burn
2021-05-26 18:39:00	kusuriya	the older the org and/or the further away from the valley the less likely they are to be turn and burn
2021-05-26 18:39:05	konomi	I live in australia so the experience is ahem a world away ;p ?
2021-05-26 18:39:20	konomi	but my country seems well into the burn and cut or offshoring
2021-05-26 18:39:35	kusuriya	thats why I say in general I think it has more to do with age or maturity of an org
2021-05-26 18:39:50	konomi	maybe when I'l older then
2021-05-26 18:40:03	kusuriya	but from what I understand too .AU is also at the point the US was at in the mid 2000's where we were trying to send all the tech jobs off shore
2021-05-26 18:40:19	kusuriya	so we didnt care that we burnt through people there was a cheaper guy in india ready to replace you
2021-05-26 18:40:25	idtn	I'm sensitive to the turn and burn, I'm probably the old guy here
2021-05-26 18:40:32	konomi	the joke is we are 10 years delayed america so probably
2021-05-26 18:41:26	kusuriya	what got discovered with that at the time was the market wasnt ready to absorb that sorta work and it all ended up getting repatriated IIRC
2021-05-26 18:41:33	idtn	 * I'm sensitive to the churn and burn, I'm probably the old guy here
2021-05-26 18:41:51	idtn	yeah that boomerang came right back on the forehead
2021-05-26 18:42:05	idtn	eastern europe is still pretty hot though
2021-05-26 18:42:11	paperdigits	Contractors also don't give a shit... they're there to do one specific job and do it as quickly as possible.
2021-05-26 18:42:21	kusuriya	mica: that too :D
2021-05-26 18:42:34	paperdigits	Even on-shore contractors
2021-05-26 18:42:44	konomi	I doubt we'll have the same realisation here
2021-05-26 18:42:46	kusuriya	yep
2021-05-26 18:43:00	kusuriya	you probably will and in probably the same way companies here did
2021-05-26 18:43:19	konomi	mostly because usa already has captured tech so there's no where else to go for that
2021-05-26 18:43:23	kusuriya	a string of easily preventable mistakes because contractors an ocean away DGAF or lie to you about their ability
2021-05-26 18:43:47	kusuriya	I wouldnt count on the US keeping tech talent in the mid term
2021-05-26 18:44:25	kusuriya	there are a lot of tech people here that are going back to the places they immigrated from for various reasons around current events
2021-05-26 18:45:29	konomi	I mean it really depends what opportunities will be available in their home countries
2021-05-26 18:45:41	konomi	I'm not sure many other countries can offer those as well as the usa
2021-05-26 18:45:46	kusuriya	especially since there are a lot of places that realized the cost savings of remote work thanks to 2020
2021-05-26 18:46:03	kusuriya	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 18:46:03		> I'm not sure many other countries can offer those as well
2021-05-26 18:46:03		> as the usa
2021-05-26 18:46:03		yet
2021-05-26 18:46:19	paperdigits	USA: we are sinking quickly.
2021-05-26 18:46:38	kusuriya	as you see tech people leave you'll see them bring freinds, start businesses if work doesnt exist
2021-05-26 18:46:43	kusuriya	more places deal in remote work
2021-05-26 18:47:23	kusuriya	the US sorta hit its foot with the shotgun and it may be hard to cauterize the wound
2021-05-26 18:47:37	konomi	mmn maybe but seems like the usa has been holding onto that for a long time I don't expect that to change for awhile
2021-05-26 18:47:52	kusuriya	yeah its really a medium term item
2021-05-26 18:47:55	kusuriya	5 - 25 years
2021-05-26 18:48:08	konomi	definitely agree with that timeline
2021-05-26 18:48:15	kusuriya	unless we get another incredibly boneheaded president that insists on shooting the other foot
2021-05-26 18:49:25	kusuriya	but to be honest I think its going to be less of an exodus in the 8 - 25 year time frame and more of a we figured out how to incorporate remote work so were hiring globally now
2021-05-26 18:49:28	konomi	can't have them not matching right :3 ?
2021-05-26 18:49:35	simondanerd	Knowing the American people, we might
2021-05-26 18:49:49	kusuriya	and probably sooner than later
2021-05-26 18:50:35	paperdigits	Trump Jr. 2024 watch out
2021-05-26 18:50:48	simondanerd	Lol
2021-05-26 18:50:49	paperdigits	If he can lay off the blow for 10 minutes
2021-05-26 18:50:59	kusuriya	nah I think Sr. will try again in 2024
2021-05-26 18:51:04	kusuriya	Jr will wait till 2028
2021-05-26 18:51:14	kusuriya	gotta sober up first
2021-05-26 18:51:16	konomi	I really hate insomnia I am too exhausted to do anything useful but I can't get sleep to be able to do something more significant later /rage
2021-05-26 18:51:55	kusuriya	oof
2021-05-26 18:52:32	paperdigits	God willing Sr. will be in jail by 2023
2021-05-26 18:52:43	konomi	that's my hope
2021-05-26 18:53:00	konomi	as awful as that sounds to say
2021-05-26 18:53:07	kusuriya	I hope but most of me says no hes too slippery
2021-05-26 18:53:20	simondanerd	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 18:53:20		> Jr will wait till 2028
2021-05-26 18:53:20		He's getting a bit old... Maybe tho
2021-05-26 18:53:23	kusuriya	hes been doing super shady illegal stuff that should have put him in jail for most of my life
2021-05-26 18:53:23	paperdigits	Nah we can't hold people accountable
2021-05-26 18:53:37	paperdigits	Especially people who tell us they're the most accountable.
2021-05-26 18:53:48	paperdigits	Party of personal responsibility!
2021-05-26 18:54:00	kusuriya	like if it was anyone other than trump what he did to fund his casino in Atlantic city would have put you in jail for the rest of your life
2021-05-26 18:54:17	kusuriya	he got put on an allowance and repayment plan
2021-05-26 18:54:31	konomi	what is he a house?
2021-05-26 18:54:44	kusuriya	I have to wonder
2021-05-26 18:54:57	konomi	my brain: "imagine the smell in that house" me: "please stop"
2021-05-26 18:55:25	kusuriya	but to be honest in the next decade were going to see a shift to remote in the US
2021-05-26 18:55:24	paperdigits	O no
2021-05-26 18:55:37	kusuriya	and when that happens for tech roles were going to see people spread out
2021-05-26 18:55:51	kusuriya	and its going to suck for people that bought property in the tech hubs like SF
2021-05-26 18:55:57	paperdigits	I am 100% remote and its awesome
2021-05-26 18:56:01	kusuriya	but maybe ill finally be able to afford the house I wanted
2021-05-26 18:56:11	konomi	envious x.x
2021-05-26 18:56:39	konomi	with my anxiety I'd love to work from home but businesses here are obsessed control freaks
2021-05-26 18:56:51	kusuriya	Ive been 100% remote for 2020 and my employer says "we want you to come in when we open in 2022 to justify real estate expenses but..."
2021-05-26 18:57:15	kusuriya	they are leaning toward asking for 1 day a year in the office minimum
2021-05-26 18:57:44	konomi	we had another outbreak of covid here just after they started allowing employers to force people back to the middle of the city
2021-05-26 18:57:48	konomi	it's a "great look"
2021-05-26 18:58:47	kusuriya	yeah my parent company is basically telling the US side of the house "take care of your people nobody has to go into the office until things look better trust the WHO"
2021-05-26 18:59:03	konomi	again much envy
2021-05-26 18:59:10	kusuriya	its interesting to have our german arm's employee council speak for us
2021-05-26 18:59:33	kusuriya	because normally they dont get a say on employees in the US :D
2021-05-26 19:01:11	konomi	wonder if I can bother a doctor to give me sleeping pills, I tried last time and got the line "you're too young to be needing those"
2021-05-26 19:01:59	kusuriya	they might have you try non drug based therapies first, which totally try them sleeping pills dont really give you restful sleep
2021-05-26 19:02:12	konomi	tried rose hip stuff once
2021-05-26 19:02:22	konomi	my burps smelt like flowers
2021-05-26 19:02:25	kusuriya	meditation apparently works wonders
2021-05-26 19:02:33	konomi	didn't really help with the sleeping part though
2021-05-26 19:03:03	kusuriya	I dont know personally though the last time I had insomnia the doc just took my anti-depressants down a notch
2021-05-26 19:03:04	konomi	meditation does not work for me
2021-05-26 19:03:10	konomi	it's 100% or asleep
2021-05-26 19:04:46	konomi	been like that since I was a kid and it;s really hard to get people to listen to those sort of problems
2021-05-26 19:04:52	konomi	much less help with it
2021-05-26 19:07:46	rw_grim	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-26 19:07:46		> mention pidgin and I might get even more salty :3
2021-05-26 19:07:46		hmm?
2021-05-26 19:09:08	simondanerd	Lol that profile pic
2021-05-26 19:09:16	konomi	I see you have an accounts.xml file, shame if anything were to... happen to it!!!
2021-05-26 19:11:04	rw_grim	well apparently I'm missing a lot of context... anyways, if you have something to say about pidgin (good or bad) i'm all ears :)
2021-05-26 19:14:51	kusuriya	just miss it :(
2021-05-26 19:15:14	rw_grim	why are you missing it? we had 3 releases last month alone :)
2021-05-26 19:15:55	kusuriya	because the networks I use every time I've tried to use it anymore just dont seem to work as well as they used to and I just crawl back to the native client
2021-05-26 19:16:05	kusuriya	only exception was AWS Chime which I dont use anymore
2021-05-26 19:16:31	rw_grim	gotcha, yeah pidgin2 has a lot of short comings that we can't exactly fix in pidgin2/purple2 because of api guaranties
2021-05-26 19:16:56	konomi	honestly I've moved on from pidgin but one of the big problems I had was that it never supported OMEMO encryption
2021-05-26 19:17:16	konomi	past that if it crashed it almost always took out the accounts.xml file filling it with garbage
2021-05-26 19:17:18	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): there's a third party plugin named lurch that support omemeo on xmpp
2021-05-26 19:17:23	kusuriya	its one that I keep checking in on the matrix plugin through waiting for it to get better because heck would I jump ship for that
2021-05-26 19:17:41	konomi	grim: came too late to be useful
2021-05-26 19:17:41	rw_grim	in 18 years of involvement with pidgin, a crash has never taken out my accounts.xml file
2021-05-26 19:17:46	konomi	I'd already given up and left pidgin by then
2021-05-26 19:17:53	rw_grim	not saying it didn't happen to you, but we can't fix what we can't reproduce :)
2021-05-26 19:18:36	konomi	I don't really have much left to say past that very old memories now
2021-05-26 19:19:22	konomi	pidgin logs 1 2010-03-25 to 2010-08-15 lets just say I used it for a very long time
2021-05-26 19:20:20	konomi	really need to delete all that some time
2021-05-26 19:20:23	kusuriya	yeah for me it was just pidgin became not really useful after AIM died
2021-05-26 19:20:28	rw_grim	okay, i'm not going to try to convince you to use it again, but i am interested in what people think will make it better
2021-05-26 19:20:55	konomi	single user interface would be nice it was a bit of a pain in windows
2021-05-26 19:20:57	simondanerd	Does it have matrix support? 
2021-05-26 19:21:06	konomi	les functionality in plugins more in the main client
2021-05-26 19:21:12	rw_grim	just in case you all weren't aware, there are a TON of third party protocol plugins out there.. even one for matrix written by new vector employees.. https://pidgin.im/plugins/?publisher=all&query=&type=Protocol
2021-05-26 19:21:22	rw_grim	@kono
2021-05-26 19:21:25	kusuriya	protocol support mostly
2021-05-26 19:21:32	kusuriya	the matrix support need a ton of love
2021-05-26 19:21:43	rw_grim	* Konomi (She/Her): in what regards? network support or just basic features?
2021-05-26 19:22:03	kusuriya	I try it off and on
2021-05-26 19:22:03	rw_grim	it's probably the blockages from the api point of view..
2021-05-26 19:22:24	kusuriya	its more whole classes of things just are not implemented or are not implemented well
2021-05-26 19:22:35	kusuriya	and they are known things if you check out the plugin’s wiki
2021-05-26 19:23:31	rw_grim	things not being implemented at all/well like what? i assume the normal, message editing, message responses, custom emoji, read receipts, delivery receipts, etc?
2021-05-26 19:23:48	rw_grim	unfortunately none of those are every going to end up in pidgin2 because of the api guaranty bloackages
2021-05-26 19:23:52	kusuriya	E2E
2021-05-26 19:24:05	kusuriya	the way images are done wasnt great, cross signing
2021-05-26 19:24:06	rw_grim	gotcha, yeah the e2ee story is pretty bad there too
2021-05-26 19:24:13	kusuriya	device management
2021-05-26 19:24:23	rw_grim	what kind of devices?
2021-05-26 19:24:29	kusuriya	pidgin doesnt register correctly all the time
2021-05-26 19:24:35	rw_grim	like e2ee devices or v&v devices?
2021-05-26 19:24:47	kusuriya	v&v iirc
2021-05-26 19:25:10	kusuriya	which sometimes causes issues with homeservers
2021-05-26 19:25:34	rw_grim	to be clear, when I say v&v i mean voice and video
2021-05-26 19:25:47	kusuriya	ah
2021-05-26 19:25:53	kusuriya	im talking the general client registration
2021-05-26 19:26:09	kusuriya	if you check your device registration it doesnt always show up
2021-05-26 19:26:10	rw_grim	with matrix?
2021-05-26 19:26:15	kusuriya	yep
2021-05-26 19:26:25	rw_grim	ah ok, i haven't spent much time using the matrix plugin honestly
2021-05-26 19:26:39	kusuriya	yeah the matrix plugin is very raw
2021-05-26 19:26:54	kusuriya	if that could be baked out as well as element I could probably overlook most the UX stuff
2021-05-26 19:28:03	kusuriya	better discord support would be nice, and slack, also wouldn’t say no to a weechat relay plugin :D
2021-05-26 19:28:08	rw_grim	gotcha.. i've been considering pulling it in tree, but there's many things to do.. something that's going to annoy a lot of people is we will be moving any non openspec/source protocols out of tree, which means pulling matrix in would help round some of that out
2021-05-26 19:28:33	kusuriya	yeah for sure
2021-05-26 19:28:37	rw_grim	what's a relay plugin? you mean like a bnc?
2021-05-26 19:29:04	kusuriya	Weechat has a relay protocol that allows you to remotely control it and use it sorta like BNC/ZNC
2021-05-26 19:29:14	rw_grim	oh interesting
2021-05-26 19:29:23	kusuriya	but its more like you SSHed into the box and attached to your weechat
2021-05-26 19:29:38	kusuriya	glowingbear is a great example of what it can be
2021-05-26 19:29:50	konomi	the biggest thing that sent me off of pidgin was lack of oemeo encryption it was and still is I believe the only way to have multi client e2ee on xmpp
2021-05-26 19:29:54	paperdigits	> In reply to @kusuriya:corrupted.io
2021-05-26 19:29:54		> better discord support would be nice, and slack, also
2021-05-26 19:29:54		> wouldn’t say no to a weechat relay plugin :D
2021-05-26 19:29:54		There is a new weechat relay in rust
2021-05-26 19:30:00	konomi	otr was all that was available and it was a headache
2021-05-26 19:30:15	kusuriya	mica: yep im keeping eyes on that :D
2021-05-26 19:30:33	paperdigits	Me too
2021-05-26 19:30:39	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): yeah otr has always been a bit lacking :-/
2021-05-26 19:30:51	paperdigits	I am in encrypted rooms now so I need e2e support in client
2021-05-26 19:31:12	kusuriya	in reality I know I should shut up and hack and make matrix on pidgin better
2021-05-26 19:31:19	rw_grim	when you say better discord/slack support, what does that entail?
2021-05-26 19:31:23	kusuriya	but Im not sure where to start generally
2021-05-26 19:31:28	konomi	I'm also not sure why aim is still a selectable protocol
2021-05-26 19:31:31	konomi	it's gone
2021-05-26 19:31:39	rw_grim	kusuriya: that'd be awesome, but obviously not everyone has the time nor skills to do these things ;)
2021-05-26 19:31:47	kusuriya	grim: for me mostly just being able to get into text rooms on servers I hang out in
2021-05-26 19:32:05	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): there's a 3rd party aim service, but we removed it a few releases ago now.. blame your distro for it still being there
2021-05-26 19:32:09	kusuriya	grim: sadly I do have the skills for it just lack motivation and opprotunity
2021-05-26 19:32:35	rw_grim	kusuriya: so the slack and discord plugins aren't getting you into those channels now?
2021-05-26 19:32:53	kusuriya	I remember something about the discord plugin requireing me to reauth all the time
2021-05-26 19:32:57	kusuriya	and I stopped using it
2021-05-26 19:33:17	kusuriya	the slack one I didnt realize existed
2021-05-26 19:33:22	rw_grim	ah.. i'm on too many discords for it to be useful for me right now
2021-05-26 19:33:43	kusuriya	id probably have the same issue
2021-05-26 19:33:48	rw_grim	slack doesn't support oauth/sso yet.. but if you're on a slack that has sso.. please help me finish getting it working :)
2021-05-26 19:33:49	kusuriya	i have a bunch of servers im part of
2021-05-26 19:34:07	rw_grim	i've considered paying for a few user premium slack to get sso support to get it implemented
2021-05-26 19:34:08	kusuriya	the slack I can use doesnt sadly
2021-05-26 19:34:23	kusuriya	the one I know that has SSO my work is restrictive about clients we can use
2021-05-26 19:34:47	konomi	going to be honest here
2021-05-26 19:34:55	konomi	the bug tracker from waht I remember was very hositle
2021-05-26 19:34:56	rw_grim	well i mean slack is restrictive about the clients that are supposed to be on it too 😂
2021-05-26 19:35:06	kusuriya	fair :D
2021-05-26 19:35:06	konomi	and that sounds like it;s changed which is great
2021-05-26 19:35:34	kusuriya	id honestly go play with it now but I have a few hours before I can use my computer im on my tablet right now
2021-05-26 19:35:34	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): the software or the people? if it was the people, I'm sorry for that, but we've changed a lot in the past 10 years.. if it was the software, that's been replaced
2021-05-26 19:36:01	konomi	it's hard to remember but I hate to say it we used pidgin bug tracker as an example of a project nevcer to report bugs for
2021-05-26 19:36:07	konomi	because the experience was that bad
2021-05-26 19:36:25	kusuriya	and TIL xmpp does have E2EE outside of plugins but it requires both servers to have the XEP for it
2021-05-26 19:36:36	konomi	though I'd still like to thank you pidgin was something that helped me and a lot friends keep in touch for a very long time
2021-05-26 19:36:43	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): i'd be curious to hear some of those stories if you're up for it. obviously not necessarily in public, but however
2021-05-26 19:36:54	konomi	but it was very much a love hate time for me and friends to interact with the project
2021-05-26 19:37:01	kusuriya	yeah its getting close to revisit time again
2021-05-26 19:37:02	rw_grim	Konomi (She/Her): awesome, glad it was useful for you :)
2021-05-26 19:37:28	kusuriya	because im back at where I was in 1998 when I started using things like pidgin because I had a brazillian chat accounts
2021-05-26 19:37:39	rw_grim	the 2.x.y release a really just "keeping it running" releases... we're getting closer to having pidgin3 may be usable for end users, but it has a long way to go yet
2021-05-26 19:38:10	rw_grim	kusuriya: i have 2 rows of chat app icons on my phone and 5 pinned tabs in my browser + pidgin :-/
2021-05-26 19:38:23	kusuriya	some communities I am part of use IRC, some use Slack, some use discord, some use matrix, some use telegram
2021-05-26 19:38:57	rw_grim	heh yeah... if ONLY the xmpp dream didn't die :(
2021-05-26 19:39:07	kusuriya	yep
2021-05-26 19:41:41	rw_grim	i'm still hopeful xmpp can make a resurgence, but we'll see..
2021-05-26 19:42:01	kusuriya	I think matrix may have ate XMPPs lunch there
2021-05-26 19:42:15	kusuriya	XEPs really were its undoing IMO
2021-05-26 19:42:25	rw_grim	i'm hesitant about matrix.. but we'll see what happens
2021-05-26 19:43:17	rw_grim	good intentions or not, the entirety of the network being in the hands of one non-profit is a bit unnerving for me.
2021-05-26 19:43:29	kusuriya	except it really isnt
2021-05-26 19:44:20	kusuriya	now most people choosing to use new vector’s infra for parts of it does pose some concern
2021-05-26 19:44:57	kusuriya	but you could stand your own up pretty easy and choose to federate with the larger network still
2021-05-26 19:44:59	rw_grim	sure, but even then the main server implementations are also controlled by new vector
2021-05-26 19:45:43	kusuriya	that is all popularity though there are non new vector servers but yeah I see the concern
2021-05-26 19:46:16	rw_grim	yeah, like i said, hesitant... i didn't say i was against it, i just have concerns  :)
2021-05-26 19:46:43	kusuriya	but XMPP will probably never see a resurgence unless they find a way to figure out how to manage XEPs in a way that doesnt annoy users
2021-05-26 19:47:07	rw_grim	users shouldn't even see xeps... but i get your point
2021-05-26 19:47:14	kusuriya	the servers make assumptions that everyone has all the same XEPs installed
2021-05-26 19:47:25	kusuriya	which is an instant failure
2021-05-26 19:47:34	rw_grim	there's negotiation for that...
2021-05-26 19:47:47	kusuriya	users should see the XEPs as features on users though
2021-05-26 19:48:29	kusuriya	so if I find you and want to start a video call it tells me I cant because your server doesnt support video calls, or your client doesnt support it
2021-05-26 19:49:08	kusuriya	so then I can check your user and get a list of capabilities sorta like what you can do with bluetooth devices
2021-05-26 19:49:38	kusuriya	I still run an XMPP server though I mean dont get me wrong
2021-05-26 19:50:00	konomi	I don't believe xmpp is coming back, I already don't log into it anymore
2021-05-26 19:50:21	kusuriya	It probably could but I dont count on it
2021-05-26 19:50:27	konomi	matrix came along and expertly stole that userbase
2021-05-26 19:50:56	konomi	the fact that things are extensions that most people would consider vital
2021-05-26 19:50:59	konomi	like you know
2021-05-26 19:51:02	konomi	push notifications
2021-05-26 19:51:04	konomi	encryption
2021-05-26 19:51:12	konomi	made xmpp a literal nightmare
2021-05-26 19:52:07	kusuriya	really IIRC XMPP wasnt really a chat protocol to start with anyway, it was just an event message bus so most those features wouldnt be needed in that context
2021-05-26 19:52:18	konomi	xml also is just trauma for me
2021-05-26 19:52:21	kusuriya	it really was a victim of its own scope creep
2021-05-26 19:52:32	konomi	burn it salt it and bury it in a pit
2021-05-26 19:53:38	konomi	best thing pidgin could get again suggestion, matrix support
2021-05-26 19:53:45	konomi	and not half of it all of it
2021-05-26 19:54:14	konomi	optional extension GRRR xmpp grrr
2021-05-26 19:55:11	kusuriya	if pidgin could give element a run for its money that would probably rekindle it
2021-05-26 19:55:33	rw_grim	rekindle what? pidgin? there's more out there than matrix..
2021-05-26 19:55:49	konomi	the best thing about pidgin was not beingf electron
2021-05-26 19:55:56	rw_grim	anyways, i've got a call, thank you all for you input, but I need to run
2021-05-26 19:56:00	konomi	it was so fast
2021-05-26 19:56:08	konomi	I presume still is
2021-05-26 19:56:24	rw_grim	yep, and we stripped webkit from pidgin3 because just no
2021-05-26 19:56:50	konomi	laters thanks again
2021-05-26 19:57:19	kusuriya	yep thanks for listening to us gripe
2021-05-27 00:40:19	<--	@salamilid:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-27 02:43:13	<--	@eelke:sjemm.net (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-27 10:53:12	<--	@erazemk:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-27 15:52:44	 *	druif wonders if just nobody knows that Lubuntu already had Pipewire setup 🤔
2021-05-27 16:11:13	simondanerd	It does? 
2021-05-27 16:11:39	simondanerd	That's... Unexpected
2021-05-27 16:19:42	paperdigits	I didnt know that
2021-05-27 21:01:23	whatitdo	Might not be the best place to ask, but it seems like I've seen some negative stuff said about WordPress here, and I'm looking to start my own blog (just for personal use right now) and was wondering what hosting platform would you recommend?
2021-05-27 21:01:23		I'd prefer not to self host it yet, but may want to in the future so ease of migration might be nice. Also needs to be free. Suggestions? Thanks!
2021-05-27 21:04:10	paperdigits	There is nothing wrong with wordpress itself, and the core install is pretty bullet proof.
2021-05-27 21:04:34	paperdigits	The problem is that there are thousands of crappy plugins that don't get updated and are full of security holes.
2021-05-27 21:18:13	corrinado	> In reply to @whatitdo:matrix.org
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> Might not be the best place to ask, but it seems like I've
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> seen some negative stuff said about WordPress here, and
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> I'm looking to start my own blog (just for personal use
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> right now) and was wondering what hosting platform would
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> you recommend?
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> I'd prefer not to self host it yet, but may want to in the
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> future so ease of migration might be nice. Also needs to
2021-05-27 21:18:13		> be free. Suggestions? Thanks!
2021-05-27 21:18:13		If you want cheap: Bluehost. If you want something where you can ask for help: SiteGround. Or you can host in on any VPS really, but that's more DiY. Tons of places have 1-click installers now that it is so popular.
2021-05-27 21:19:19	corrinado	And mica has a great point. Keep the damned thing updates and the risk is in the plugins. Do your research about what you install. Feel free to ping me if you have any specific questions.
2021-05-27 21:19:48	corrinado	 * And mica has a great point. Keep the damned thing updated - the risk is in the plugins. Do your research about what you install. Feel free to ping me if you have any specific questions.
2021-05-27 21:23:25	whatitdo	Thanks both of you
2021-05-27 21:26:20	whatitdo	What's that code for linode for JB? I prefer the self hosted show so I'd rather support that if possible 
2021-05-27 21:26:53	whatitdo	Nvm it's just linode.com/selfhosted
2021-05-27 21:30:22	paperdigits	You should consider a static site
2021-05-27 21:32:54	whatitdo	* Nvm it's just linode.com/ssh
2021-05-27 21:33:28	whatitdo	Static as in no hyperlinks or buttons? Sorry I've never done web design or anything like that 
2021-05-27 21:37:08	paperdigits	A static site, as in just HTML pages, no database
2021-05-27 21:37:20	paperdigits	Using something like Hugo or jekyll
2021-05-27 21:37:47	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	I have xpmo.gitlab.io built with hugo, for example
2021-05-27 21:40:21	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Hugo regenerates the main page (and every page) every time I push.
2021-05-27 21:44:52	whatitdo	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-27 21:44:52		> A static site, as in just HTML pages, no database
2021-05-27 21:44:52		Html wouldn't require Java or any of that crap either right? So it'd be similar to Stallman's website? I may eventually want to jazz it up if I wish to try to monetize it (as if someone would care about my ramblings lol)
2021-05-27 21:46:07	paperdigits	You can add JavaScript to do somethngs, and CSS to make it pretty.
2021-05-27 21:46:21	paperdigits	There are a lot of prebuilt themes.
2021-05-27 21:46:45	whatitdo	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-27 21:46:45		> I have xpmo.gitlab.io built with hugo, for example
2021-05-27 21:46:45		Awesome, that's exactly what I was looking for. Is this considered a static site?
2021-05-27 21:47:36	paperdigits	Gamma: are you on lineage 18?
2021-05-27 21:49:02	paperdigits	> In reply to @whatitdo:matrix.org
2021-05-27 21:49:02		> Awesome, that's exactly what I was looking for. Is this
2021-05-27 21:49:02		> considered a static site?
2021-05-27 21:49:02		Looks like it.
2021-05-27 21:49:55	whatitdo	So is that self hosted? Or is that some free service? 
2021-05-27 21:58:28	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Gitlab Pages, which is free
2021-05-27 21:58:33	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	* Citizen528:  Gitlab Pages, which is free
2021-05-27 21:59:28	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Source: https://gitlab.com/xPMo/xpmo.gitlab.io
2021-05-27 21:59:28		Upstream: https://gitlab.com/pages/hugo
2021-05-27 21:59:53	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-27 21:59:53		> Gamma: are you on lineage 18?
2021-05-27 21:59:53		Yep, I am now
2021-05-27 22:00:59	paperdigits	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-27 22:00:59		> Yep, I am now
2021-05-27 22:00:59		Are you able to get incoming calls? Are you using Ting?
2021-05-27 22:01:21	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Yes and yes.
2021-05-27 22:01:32	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	<IMG_20210527_210103.jpg> [https://matrix.wyattjmiller.com:443/_matrix/media/r0/download/jupiterbroadcasting.com/HewElTqeCaCcPEsBPitVAWPa]
2021-05-27 22:02:45	paperdigits	Hmmm... I wonder what my problem is...
2021-05-27 22:03:06	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	APNs?
2021-05-27 22:03:51	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Everything works for me, with one exception: If I leave wifi, data doesn't work until I send a MMS, then it works
2021-05-27 22:03:58	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	* Everything works for me, with one exception: If I leave wifi, data doesn't work until I send a MMS, then it works fine.
2021-05-27 22:04:16	paperdigits	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-27 22:04:16		> APNs?
2021-05-27 22:04:16		I assumed so, but I've tried them and they don't work. I had a custom APN on v17, didn't work on 18
2021-05-27 22:05:51	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	I have the ones from their guide, although I had to re-enter them after upgrading
2021-05-27 22:06:14	paperdigits	X1 or X3?
2021-05-27 22:06:24	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	X3
2021-05-27 22:06:50	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	default,admin,fota,mms,supl,hipri,internet,dun
2021-05-27 22:08:00	paperdigits	I'll have to give it another go.
2021-05-27 22:08:15	paperdigits	Thanks Gamma
2021-05-27 22:08:29	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Yeah, I seem to remember it not saving at first, something changed between 17.1 and 18.1
2021-05-27 22:12:29	whatitdo	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-27 22:12:29		> Citizen528:  Gitlab Pages, which is free
2021-05-27 22:12:29		What's the catch? Do they serve ads for themselves or sell your data?
2021-05-27 22:13:53	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	It's not much more than a git repo
2021-05-27 22:14:22	corrinado	The catch?! They want your code to peruse for their own projects. That's the tinfoil hat version.
2021-05-27 22:14:23	whatitdo	What device are you two talking about? If you have a pixel I'd highly recommend calyxos. I'll never go back to lineage. Plus they use matrix instead of reddit for support which is a plus in my book
2021-05-27 22:14:49	paperdigits	Citizen528: one plus 5t
2021-05-27 22:14:59	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	OP5T here too
2021-05-27 22:15:19	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	The newest LOS builds actually are based on the Pixel images
2021-05-27 22:15:25	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	 * The newest LOS builds (18.1) actually are based on the Pixel images
2021-05-27 22:17:50	whatitdo	Well if you ever switch to a Xiaomi Mi A2 or a pixel (2 or newer) I'd highly recommend calyx. There's graphene as well but the community (main dev) is toxic as hell. So I  opted out. Calyx community is awesome.
2021-05-27 22:18:54	whatitdo	They recently added a built in firewall app so I don't have to root and use afwall+ to block internet from some apps.
2021-05-27 22:19:26	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	RE: Pages, I imagine the catch is a combination of
2021-05-27 22:19:26		getting you on their CI/CD platform
2021-05-27 22:19:26		pipeline minutes (for building the site) are limited (but I never got anywhere close)
2021-05-27 22:19:26		static sites only
2021-05-27 22:39:16	-->	@gammabot:jupiterbroadcasting.com (None) has been invited to #🗣 JB Chat
2021-05-27 22:39:46	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	And well, it worked for me. I know how to write a .gitlab-ci.yml now
2021-05-28 09:16:09	kendall	I think I finally got my synapse instance fixed....
2021-05-28 09:17:01	kendall	!giphy out of breath
2021-05-28 09:17:02	--	Notice(gammabot): No image found
2021-05-28 09:17:07	neb_giphy	<alo7english-out-of-breath-tpr-oydOoy4XPIxo8SFT5K> [https://matrix.wyattjmiller.com:443/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/EAAoAfFcenZGkqJuqbAoxkDJ]
2021-05-28 09:17:47	strit	> In reply to @kendall:thewhitmans.cloud
2021-05-28 09:17:47		> I think I finally got my synapse instance fixed....
2021-05-28 09:17:47		What was wrong with it?
2021-05-28 09:20:05	kendall	I was delegating the federation traffic over port 443 and it seemed to crash the whole network. I ended up rebooting my router and server and now it seems like it's fixed for now. Couldn't tell you what went wrong. Maybe it just maxed out the bandwidth? No idea.
2021-05-28 09:32:02	strit	I use federation on port 8448, just to have it seperate.
2021-05-28 10:53:18	kendall	> In reply to @strit:matrix.org
2021-05-28 10:53:18		> I use federation on port 8448, just to have it seperate.
2021-05-28 10:53:18		I may end up switching to that. I wanted to use 443 because it was one less port to open, but if it causes issues again, I'll move it over.
2021-05-28 10:54:51	kusuriya	its interesting it causes problems though i wonder if it goes AWOL because it gets unexpected data
2021-05-28 10:55:24	atrili	Do you have something else listening on port 443?
2021-05-28 10:56:28	kendall	Maybe. It's only happened once, so I'm waiting for something to go wrong.
2021-05-28 10:57:21	kendall	Atrili  I've got some self hosted sites running on my homelab.
2021-05-28 10:59:03	atrili	In general you're only going to be able to use that port for one thing
2021-05-28 11:00:07	kendall	The way I've got it setup is with nginx as a reverse proxy, and all the services are running in docker containers.
2021-05-28 11:01:25	kendall	But just talking through this, I think your right. Nginx and Synapse may be fighting.
2021-05-28 11:02:26	kendall	Meh, I'll just switch it over to 8448, and save another headache.
2021-05-28 11:03:16	atrili	Yea, if nginx is listening on 443, then the other process isn't going to be able to do it. A process is going to bind to the port to own it
2021-05-28 11:03:42	atrili	You can see that by running "netstat -pan | grep :443" at a command line, that will tell you what process has the port
2021-05-28 11:05:15	kendall	This the process I was using from their docs.
2021-05-28 11:05:15		https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/master/docs/delegate.md
2021-05-28 11:11:19	atrili	I mean, it's just the way sockets work. Process binds to socket/port and listens on it. If you already had nginx listening on 443, then synapse can't listen on that port too.
2021-05-28 11:11:41	kendall	Then I don't get how it's working.
2021-05-28 11:11:52	kendall	Because federation is working as well as my other sites.
2021-05-28 11:12:24	kendall	Because you're right, when I try to bind to a port that's already being used, docker throws an error.
2021-05-28 11:12:39	atrili	Like I said, run "netstat -pan | grep :443" and see what process has the port
2021-05-28 11:12:40	omenos	Conan Kudo: I was partially wrong last night. macOS (if using APFS [encrypted]) will prompt for a passcode on boot, separate from user login. However, if you turn on FileVault, it'll merge the two together, effectively saying which accounts can unlock the base filesystem.
2021-05-28 11:14:17	kendall	Nginx has the port
2021-05-28 11:15:50	atrili	Yea, so inbound traffic would be going to nginx then. Outbound traffic from synapse to other servers is going to use whatever port the remote server listens on
2021-05-28 11:16:46	kendall	Ok
2021-05-28 11:17:15	kendall	I switched back to 8448 and no issues so far.
2021-05-28 11:37:43	kusuriya	yeah in general if you use their documentation there are some specific things you have to reverse proxy to the synapse server running on 8443
2021-05-28 11:38:10	kusuriya	its a bit of a lift but once you got it you can have synapse only listen on localhost and nginx do the lifting off the internet
2021-05-28 11:38:46	kusuriya	but if you get the proxy wrong federation faceplants and you may take other nodes out depending on configurations
2021-05-28 13:52:15	whatitdo	Are there any RF earbuds you guys would recommend? I'm done with Bluetooth. I can't believe it's been around for 20 ish years and it's still so shitty.
2021-05-28 13:52:15		But, not sure if RF devices will connect to my pixel 4a.....
2021-05-28 14:09:08	paperdigits	Do they make RF earbuds? I've only ever seen over the ear style headphones in RF
2021-05-28 14:17:07	whatitdo	Found these https://www.newegg.com/audio-technica-ath-ckr7twbk-black/p/0G6-00VK-00033 but it says "bluetooth/RF" so idk
2021-05-28 14:23:14	whatitdo	But yeah I'm struggling to find any 
2021-05-28 14:30:04	paperdigits	Bluetooth is technically RF, no?
2021-05-28 14:31:43	paperdigits	6 hrs playback and 2 hours to charge, I'd pass on those
2021-05-28 14:47:22	whatitdo	Not really. From what I've read anyway.
2021-05-28 14:53:49	irunbash	RF = radio frequency. Both Bluetooth and WiFi are technically a part of it. Most of the time when a peripheral claims to be “RF” without Bluetooth or WiFi they mean some non-standardized protocol.
2021-05-28 14:54:11	irunbash	* RF = radio frequency. Both Bluetooth and WiFi are technically a part of it. However, most of the time when a peripheral claims to be “RF” without Bluetooth or WiFi they mean some non-standardized protocol.
2021-05-28 15:11:49	squirrellydave	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-28 15:11:49		> Bluetooth is technically RF, no?
2021-05-28 15:11:49		BT uses RF spectrum, but it's a specific protocol.
2021-05-28 15:13:04	squirrellydave	RF headphones/remotes and similar typically have a paired tx/rx sensors.  It can use different spectrum than BT, and the nature of the pairing can make them better, and more able to deal with interference.  Can, but doesn't guarantee it.  
2021-05-28 15:13:33	paperdigits	It was a rhetorical question... Bluetooth is radio frequencies.
2021-05-28 15:13:36	paperdigits	;)
2021-05-28 15:15:04	squirrellydave	basically everything is RF though.  from AM radio to 5gUW
2021-05-28 15:18:00	paperdigits	But AM radio just makes you stupid, 5G gives you covid.
2021-05-28 15:18:06	paperdigits	So there is a difference!
2021-05-28 15:18:22	squirrellydave	hahaahah.  Well played
2021-05-28 15:19:02	paperdigits	That is what the vaccine nano bots told me to say
2021-05-28 15:19:16	squirrellydave	It's easier to just give in
2021-05-28 15:19:25	squirrellydave	Resistance is futile
2021-05-28 15:20:04	paperdigits	I've just been kicked off Twitter for being a true patriot.
2021-05-28 15:20:41	paperdigits	GO FOR THE GRIFT 2024
2021-05-28 15:25:07	drw	mica:  You forgot about the fluoride in the water to drug us and keep us docile...
2021-05-28 15:33:53	paperdigits	Dan Williams: I've contacted many many people to have the fluoride changed for meth.
2021-05-28 15:33:57	paperdigits	No takers so far
2021-05-28 15:34:13	paperdigits	Productivity boost ahead!
2021-05-28 15:34:24	paperdigits	Think of the possibilities
2021-05-28 15:35:01	paperdigits	The meth will also take care of you teeth and soon you won't need a dentist.
2021-05-28 15:35:05	drw	I'm game, let's do it!
2021-05-28 15:35:37	drw	Who wants to live to 50? Old age is overrated
2021-05-28 15:36:09	paperdigits	The planet will be uninhabitable by then
2021-05-28 15:36:18	paperdigits	Might as well have a good time now
2021-05-28 15:40:42	paperdigits	OK I'm going to stop
2021-05-28 15:53:30	whatitdo	The government says it's good for me so it must be true!! 
2021-05-28 16:30:43	paperdigits	Have terrorist charges been filed yet for kicking people off Twitter? How's that going?
2021-05-28 16:41:32	whatitdo	Ahh that's why I had you blocked. Lol
2021-05-28 16:42:08	whatitdo	✌️
2021-05-28 16:51:02	paperdigits	I mean... It was you who said all that nonsense.
2021-05-28 16:51:14	paperdigits	I'd hoped you were joking but seems like no
2021-05-28 19:00:27	irunbash	Has anyone been experiencing an issue with spaces where the room count on the "Explore Rooms" page is correct but rooms you are not a part of don't show up?
2021-05-28 20:31:58	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	> In reply to @irunbash:irbash.net
2021-05-28 20:31:58		> Has anyone been experiencing an issue with spaces where
2021-05-28 20:31:58		> the room count on the "Explore Rooms" page is correct but
2021-05-28 20:31:58		> rooms you are not a part of don't show up?
2021-05-28 20:31:58		Your server needs experimental_features: { spaces_enabled: true } for the Spaces Summary, see 1.34.0 release notes
2021-05-28 20:33:07	irunbash	I have spaces enabled. Rooms are not appearing in the space that should be there.
2021-05-28 20:33:45	irunbash	However, they show up in the total count of rooms
2021-05-28 20:34:37	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Do you have it enabled in experimental_features though? Spaces are in stable, but the Summary feature is experimental only
2021-05-28 20:34:54	irunbash	I do
2021-05-28 20:34:59	irunbash	You can take a look at it: #vkx:irbash.net
2021-05-28 20:35:00	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Ah
2021-05-28 20:35:38	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	I imagine I won't be able to see anything (b/c I'll still be asking jupiterbroadcasting.com instead), but I'll check
2021-05-28 20:35:57	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Yeah, "Your server does not support showing space hierarchies."
2021-05-28 20:36:58	irunbash	No worries, I assume its a bug they will iron out eventually, I just haven’t found any mention of it.
2021-05-29 03:46:42	konomi	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-05-29 03:46:42		> Have terrorist charges been filed yet for kicking people
2021-05-29 03:46:42		> off Twitter? How's that going?
2021-05-29 03:46:42		what >.>
2021-05-29 10:52:56	paperdigits	> In reply to @konomi:matrix.org
2021-05-29 10:52:56		> what >.>
2021-05-29 10:52:56		That dude thinks kicking conservative US politicians off Twitter is a form of terrorism
2021-05-29 10:53:20	konomi	uh okay...
2021-05-29 10:55:27	paperdigits	Yup
2021-05-29 10:56:03	konomi	avoid mode engaged ;p
2021-05-29 10:56:27	paperdigits	🤔 freedom to believe what you want... #murica
2021-05-30 02:09:28	masonb	> In reply to @bytebitten:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-05-30 02:09:28		> www.openprinting.org/printers
2021-05-30 02:09:28		Negative suggestion, do not buy one of these....m2070w. Positive suggestion, I have always had good luck with HP printers (officejet, etc...).
2021-05-30 03:26:33	bittin-guest	https://meet.gnome.org/b/kri-ku1-hqx-bjv GNOME foss-north Online 2021 meetup
2021-05-30 06:56:14	canoe	Eek, there's actually a domain up for this Freenode debacle.. https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
2021-05-30 07:05:01	mrjpaxton-matrix	Wow, that's amazing. Lol.
2021-05-30 07:05:25	mrjpaxton-matrix	Freenode will be dead to me, unfortunately, once Matrix finally bridges Libera Chat with it.
2021-05-30 07:06:15	canoe	I've just dropped my nick there, long time listener to JB, thought I'd jump into Matrix finally!
2021-05-30 07:07:55	mrjpaxton-matrix	I'm using Matrix with the Spaces beta now. I really think it is a very underrated technology.
2021-05-30 07:09:21	canoe	Element's working great on Plasma, nice to see decentralised comms making a return. 
2021-05-30 07:10:34	Follpvosten	I also opted into the Spaces beta yesterday; I'm wondering, is there any way to search for spaces?
2021-05-30 07:21:16	mrjpaxton-matrix	I don't know. I'm also trying to explore rooms from spaces, but I can't seem to do that yet. I have to do a convoluted process of adding the room I want to "All Rooms" first, then add it to my private Space. Kinda weird...
2021-05-30 07:21:31	mrjpaxton-matrix	So some things still need ironing out. But that's beta for you.
2021-05-30 07:28:29	masonb	Does anyone know a good guide for setting up a samba shared folder under Fedora 34 (share ~/Public to $USER). This one (https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/samba/) is almost working but when I go to open the file it says i don't have the permissions.
2021-05-30 07:59:24	strit	Almost 1000 users in this room. 😉 
2021-05-30 08:00:16	hiro98	Unknown message of type io.element.effects.space_invaders: "{'body': 'amlost :)', 'msgtype': 'io.element.effects.space_invaders'}"
2021-05-30 08:00:50	hiro98	Unknown message of type io.element.effects.space_invaders: "{'body': 'almost :)', 'msgtype': 'io.element.effects.space_invaders'}"
2021-05-30 08:05:54	hiro98	> In reply to @canoe:matrix.org
2021-05-30 08:05:54		> Eek, there's actually a domain up for this Freenode
2021-05-30 08:05:54		> debacle.. https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
2021-05-30 08:05:54		powered by DataDog lol
2021-05-30 08:06:51	canoe	Well, that's entirely appropriate in the current context 😂
2021-05-30 08:07:03	hiro98	😆
2021-05-30 09:40:28	masonb	BTW, if anyone wants to install Dash to Dock on Gnome 40, this is a working temp fix (on mine at least) from a reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/nb6ayy/how_can_i_use_dash_to_dock_right_now_on_gnome_40/).
2021-05-30 09:40:28		sudo dnf install sassc
2021-05-30 09:40:28		git clone https://github.com/ewlsh/dash-to-dock/
2021-05-30 09:40:28		cd dash-to-dock
2021-05-30 09:40:28		git checkout ewlsh/gnome-40
2021-05-30 09:40:28		make
2021-05-30 09:40:28		make install
2021-05-30 09:40:28		logout and log back in.
2021-05-30 11:27:40	simondanerd	Cool. Thanks
2021-05-30 13:39:32	corrinado	> In reply to @masonb:matrix.org
2021-05-30 13:39:32		> Does anyone know a good guide for setting up a samba
2021-05-30 13:39:32		> shared folder under Fedora 34 (share ~/Public to $USER).
2021-05-30 13:39:32		> This one (https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-
2021-05-30 13:39:32		> docs/samba/) is almost working but when I go to open the
2021-05-30 13:39:32		> file it says i don't have the permissions.
2021-05-30 13:39:32		Have you created a samba user with smbpasswd?
2021-05-30 14:56:33	masonb	> In reply to @corrinado:matrix.org
2021-05-30 14:56:33		> Have you created a samba user with> smbpasswd> ?
2021-05-30 14:56:33		Yip. Eventually Strom on the Fedora page sorted it out with,
2021-05-30 14:56:33		sudo semanage fcontext -d -t samba_share_t ~/Public
2021-05-30 14:56:33		sudo semanage fcontext -a -t samba_share_t "$HOME/Public(/.*)?"
2021-05-30 14:56:33		sudo restorecon -vFR ~/Public
2021-05-30 14:56:33		At some point I'll look up the SElinux commends and figure out how the second line changes things (the baby woke up so I copied and pasted) but it worked so that is cool.
2021-05-30 14:56:33		Thank you though.
2021-05-30 20:36:52	⚠️ kendall	Bad event received, event type: m.room.message
2021-06-01 12:19:32	paperdigits	For anyone that gave a bit for Robin Mills, long time maintainer of exiv2 who is retiring after the next release of the library, thank you! Here is a note from him: https://hackmd.io/3O0XYA6GQHmI2gAeTLZ-WA?view
2021-06-01 12:20:29	paperdigits	He was gifted euphonium lessons with one of his favorite musicians, two very nice bottles of 18 year old Scotch, and a nice basket that it all came in.
2021-06-01 12:20:36	paperdigits	Thanks!
2021-06-01 15:02:52	--	Notice(_neb_rssbot_=40noblepayne=3ajupiterbroadcasting.com): LINUX Unplugged: 408: Linux Road Warrior ( https://linuxunplugged.com/408 )
2021-06-02 09:20:25	omenos	So it would appear that shortly after the completion of the Linux Academy transition, A Cloud Guru will be acquired by Pluralsight.
2021-06-02 09:21:26	omenos	https://acloudguru.com/blog/news/pluralsight-to-acquire-a-cloud-guru
2021-06-02 09:55:24	conan_kudo	I wonder how chrislas's ad read will change now 😛
2021-06-02 09:55:38	conan_kudo	But I've got Pluralsight Flow from work, and it's a nice platform
2021-06-02 09:56:19	&chrislas	I wonder that too, however these business deals take months and months to finalize
2021-06-02 09:57:41	jivanpal	chrislas  Your Matrix profile pic is fabulous
2021-06-02 11:26:52	paperdigits	You'd think the purchasing company would probably honor existing contracts...
2021-06-02 11:43:57	omenos	I remember when Digital Tutor's got snapped up by Pluralsight. At the time, I really hated the web navigation/discoverability and mobile app of PS compared to DT's setup.
2021-06-02 12:28:59	omenos	This may be my third time sending this, my apologies. Element is freaking out over here:
2021-06-02 12:28:59		I remember when Digital Tutor's got snapped up by Pluralsight. At the time, I really hated the web navigation/discoverability and mobile app of PS compared to DT's setup.
2021-06-02 12:39:46	hasmonia	Element freaking out ... nah, never 😆
2021-06-02 12:57:53	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	mroche:  Don't worry, Matrix is good about eventual consistency,  I've never seen accidental duplicate messages before
2021-06-02 13:00:21	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	(I'll admit, I was tempted to send my last message multiple times on purpose)
2021-06-02 13:36:56	paperdigits	Ack... Home Assistant isn't adding yaml config for a bunch of new stuff... Changed some core yaml Matt stuff.
2021-06-02 13:37:09	paperdigits	* Ack... Home Assistant isn't adding yaml config for a bunch of new stuff... Changed some core yaml mqtt stuff.
2021-06-02 13:37:23	paperdigits	Mqtt is the reason why my HA never breaks.
2021-06-02 13:46:08	thelinuxtrucker	I really don’t like that most new things are going to UI configurations. If it is configured in yaml it never needs to be reconfigured unless I change something…..makes me feel like the old man yelling at the kids on my lawn
2021-06-02 13:48:21	jivanpal	<tenor_gif8117300538586124877.gif> [https://matrix.wyattjmiller.com:443/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/gSQgwxXIALhWZkgxEHrkGAFw]
2021-06-02 13:48:26	paperdigits	@TheLinuxTrucker: yes
2021-06-02 13:48:39	jivanpal	I have no idea why that is apparently an animated GIF
2021-06-02 13:49:09	paperdigits	So you can hear the yelling
2021-06-02 13:54:28	d-io	> In reply to @gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com
2021-06-02 13:54:28		> mroche:  Don't worry, Matrix is good about eventual
2021-06-02 13:54:28		> consistency,  I've never seen accidental duplicate
2021-06-02 13:54:28		> messages before
2021-06-02 13:54:28		I think it's more of a client issue there
2021-06-02 13:55:02	gamma:jupiterbroadcasting.com	Exactly
2021-06-02 14:07:14	omenos	❄️ D ❄️: I don't know what was happening, but it got into a funny state where it just wouldn't send the message (even killing the flatpak multiple times it would show up on start).  So I opted for a copy paste and "delete all" rather than "retry all" and things went through.
2021-06-02 14:43:10	d-io	> In reply to @omenos:matrix.org
2021-06-02 14:43:10		> ❄️ D ❄️: I don't know what was happening, but it got into
2021-06-02 14:43:10		> a funny state where it just wouldn't send the message
2021-06-02 14:43:10		> (even killing the flatpak multiple times it would show up
2021-06-02 14:43:10		> on start).  So I opted for a copy paste and "delete all"
2021-06-02 14:43:10		> rather than "retry all" and things went through.
2021-06-02 14:43:10		You could also try resetting cache. It's somewhere in settings
2021-06-02 14:43:33	omenos	Everything's fine now, I did a reset cache a few days ago
2021-06-02 14:43:47	d-io	I've never had issues with Element on desktop, though. The Android app seemed a bit off at times, but then I switched to Fluffy
2021-06-02 14:50:46	corrinado	> In reply to @d-io:matrix.org
2021-06-02 14:50:46		> I've never had issues with Element on desktop, though. The
2021-06-02 14:50:46		> Android app seemed a bit off at times, but then I switched
2021-06-02 14:50:46		> to Fluffy
2021-06-02 14:50:46		Same here
2021-06-02 15:47:13	paperdigits	For the android app, just empty the cache every once in a while
2021-06-02 17:27:12	paperdigits	In other Tech news, Trump shut down his blog
2021-06-02 20:44:56	subpop:matrix.org	He *had* a blog?
2021-06-02 21:43:33	paperdigits	Link Dupont: yes.
2021-06-02 21:43:54	paperdigits	so he could say things like "RIGGED!!! #SAD!"
2021-06-02 21:58:19	subpop:matrix.org	Ugh. Well, if he chose to deplatform himself, I'm not going to stop him.
2021-06-03 00:44:26	masonb	You know the shipping the robes internationally problem? I m pretty sure this has been solved already in most countries with services like YouShop in NZ where our Post Office service has an address you can ship to in the US that they will then forward. 
2021-06-03 00:44:26		This would allow the international listeners to buy merch and solve much of the complexity of shipping for JB.
2021-06-03 00:44:26		https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop
2021-06-03 00:55:13	infoseclibsoc	Anyone got any ideas on how to secure access to resources published to the web by restricting access to only those who have an account on the systems in question? I think Self-Hosted podcast  or 2.5Admins (can’t recall) looked into this but the suggestions seemed to be some form of pre-auth for web logins - but how do these work with native apps, like JellyFin etc?
2021-06-03 08:27:34	jivanpal	Was discussing this over in #geeklab:linuxdelta.com the other day with AtypicalKernel, came to the conclusion that a VPN is pretty much the only way to do it
2021-06-03 08:28:01	jivanpal	* infoseclibsoc: Was discussing this over in #geeklab:linuxdelta.com the other day with AtypicalKernel,, came to the conclusion that a VPN is pretty much the only way to do it
2021-06-03 08:29:00	jivanpal	* infoseclibsoc:: Was discussing this over in #geeklab:linuxdelta.com the other day with AtypicalKernel, came to the conclusion that a VPN is pretty much the only way to do it
2021-06-03 08:45:39	infoseclibsoc	Ah really? So I have to give WIreGuard access to everyone?
2021-06-03 08:56:43	jivanpal	infoseclibsoc You could use something like SSH tunneling instead to restrict it to certain users on the destination machine
2021-06-03 09:38:59	skoobasteeve	chrislas Listening to the latest Coder, stoked to hear about your visit to Coeur d' Alene (my hometown). Let me know next time you're there if you want some local recs
2021-06-03 10:00:47	&chrislas	> In reply to @skoobasteeve:linuxdelta.com
2021-06-03 10:00:47		> chrislas Listening to the latest Coder, stoked to hear
2021-06-03 10:00:47		> about your visit to Coeur d' Alene (my hometown). Let me
2021-06-03 10:00:47		> know next time you're there if you want some local recs
2021-06-03 10:00:47		Ok awesome, we will definitely be back!
2021-06-03 10:01:47	&chrislas	> In reply to @masonb:matrix.org
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> You know the shipping the robes internationally problem? I
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> m pretty sure this has been solved already in most
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> countries with services like YouShop in NZ where our Post
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> Office service has an address you can ship to in the US
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> that they will then forward.   This would allow the
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> international listeners to buy merch and solve much of the
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> complexity of shipping for JB.
2021-06-03 10:01:47		> https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop
2021-06-03 10:01:47		Yeah we have a deal now set up. Which I will definitely use for future orders ✅
2021-06-03 10:12:57	squirrellydave	Have the robes started shopping for the US?
2021-06-03 13:20:45	masonb	In the USA, robes shop for you?
2021-06-03 13:21:43	squirrellydave	haha...whoops
2021-06-03 13:21:50	squirrellydave	 * Have the robes started shipping for the US?
2021-06-03 15:38:05	masonb	<Screenshot from 2021-06-03 21-36-18.png> [https://matrix.wyattjmiller.com:443/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/mtDaDqmWgiZVvYJwCRZRSdLK]
2021-06-03 15:38:10	masonb	This is interesting. Its the Fedora 34 release party KDE SIG saying they manage the QT stack for RHEL 8. I thought RHEL 8 didn't do KDE....https://youtu.be/1Eed1m4Lwtc?list=PL0x39xti0_65fpkNt0HW7RtCCGsDtGRIT&t=43
2021-06-03 16:05:20	paperdigits	So I've been trying to deploy pi-hole in a podman container but no traffic ever hits it. I change the DNS on opnsense, but it doesn't seem to do anything.
2021-06-03 16:29:58	dailyherold	Container have host port mapped so it's accessible to things beyond other containers on that host? If needed that is 
2021-06-03 16:34:29	paperdigits	The ports seem to be mapped OK. Port 80 works since I can hit the web page
2021-06-03 16:37:21	dailyherold	Don't know how the arch works, but can you go straight from a client to pihole bypassing opensense?
2021-06-03 16:38:42	atcommander	What about port 53 that is default port for DNS  requests? 
2021-06-03 16:47:55	paperdigits	I've bound 53 & 67. 53 is TCP and UDP
2021-06-03 16:48:43	paperdigits	I tried to set my laptop to hit it, but it didn't.
2021-06-03 16:49:44	paperdigits	I guess I need to start by trying to resolve DNS using dig or something like that, make sure the ports are mapped and are hitting the container, then make sure opnsense is forwarding traffic correctly.
2021-06-03 18:21:23	&SnarkTest	> In reply to @jivanpal:matrix.org
2021-06-03 18:21:23		> infoseclibsoc: Was discussing this over in
2021-06-03 18:21:23		> #geeklab:linuxdelta.com the other day with AtypicalKernel,
2021-06-03 18:21:23		> came to the conclusion that a VPN is pretty much the only
2021-06-03 18:21:23		> way to do it
2021-06-03 18:21:23		there are several ways with web browser access, only a couple if you want to use native app access, and it was using a nginx reverse proxy with web auth on 2.5 admins
2021-06-03 18:22:43	&SnarkTest	a vpn is the recommended way to enable native apps, but there are other ways that typically involve some kind of system wide proxy
2021-06-03 18:22:56	&SnarkTest	or system wide network config
2021-06-03 19:03:42	jasonish	Anyone know of a program that is written in C/C++/Rust/Go whatever (compiled, not Python, etc) that can be scripted or load plugins written in JS?
2021-06-03 20:18:18	nst8021	mica: i found that sometime it doesnt start the FTL and outputs errors into the log when run in podman
2021-06-03 20:23:30	paperdigits	nst8021: thanks
2021-06-03 20:25:46	nst8021	are you running rootless or root container?
2021-06-03 20:37:19	paperdigits	Root container nst8021
2021-06-03 21:26:38	subpop:matrix.org	> In reply to @jasonish:matrix.org
2021-06-03 21:26:38		> Anyone know of a program that is written in C/C++/Rust/Go
2021-06-03 21:26:38		> whatever (compiled, not Python, etc) that can be scripted
2021-06-03 21:26:38		> or load plugins written in JS?
2021-06-03 21:26:38		Uh, polkit kinda does that. It links in mozembed and runs JavaScript snippets as part of its authorization flow. The polkit daemon is written in C, and the JavaScript snippets are just JavaScript, but within a defined function definition (see /etc/polkit-1/rules.d and https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit.8.html#polkit-rules).
2021-06-03 21:29:28	subpop:matrix.org	There's also GIMP, which allows scripting it through its weird script-fu interface. I think you can write script-fu in Perl and Python?
2021-06-03 21:32:03	nst8021	@mica when you setup your laptop did you restart the interface after setting dns name servers
2021-06-03 21:49:52	paperdigits	nst8021: no. Maybe that's the problem
2021-06-03 21:50:10	paperdigits	Script-fu in gimp is scheme I think
2021-06-03 21:50:22	paperdigits	There are also python bindings
2021-06-03 22:42:05	nst8021	cool i got mine working
2021-06-04 10:21:34	masonb	If anyone ever needs to throw up a quick site then publii is quite a cool static site generator I had never heard of but have just spend a couple of hours playing with.
2021-06-04 11:27:58	paperdigits	masonbee: what's cool about it?
2021-06-04 12:36:37	masonb	> In reply to @paperdigits:matrix.org
2021-06-04 12:36:37		> masonbee: what's cool about it?
2021-06-04 12:36:37		Didn't crash even when I imported a seven hundred post wordpress site and the output wasn't too bad. Threw the occasional javascript error but that didn't seem to effect its working. Has a flatpak, rpm and debs and an appimage as well I think. Pretty much zero learning curve. Open source, a wysiwyg editor, a markdown editor and a block editor depending on your preference.
2021-06-04 12:36:37		Uploads the site to your server afterwards. Git integration for github and gitlab but I haven't checked that out because I use gitea.
2021-06-04 12:36:37		Backups, custom css and html. Generates thunbnails for responsive pictures.
2021-06-04 12:36:37		On the downside there aren't many themes and it can import tags or categories from wordpress. In my case I chose tags and they aren't attached to the posts now so I have to retag everythign should I so choose.
2021-06-04 12:44:46	paperdigits	masonbee: ah a GUI for static sites. That's cool
2021-06-04 12:44:55	paperdigits	We use Hugo for everything.
2021-06-04 13:30:39	masonb	mica: I was looking at installing hugo last night when I ran into publii. :) Last month it was Bootstrap studio, etc...What is the equivalent of distro hopping with software?
2021-06-04 13:31:42	paperdigits	Madness.
2021-06-04 13:31:58	paperdigits	Find a tool that meets your needs and go with it.
2021-06-04 13:32:05	paperdigits	There are a billion alternatives 
2021-06-04 13:32:16	paperdigits	And they all do roughly the same thing
2021-06-04 13:36:18	thornbill	I like 11ty for a static site generator but I’m a masochist who enjoys JavaScript 🙃
2021-06-04 13:38:53	paperdigits	We landed on Hugo because it's a binary
2021-06-04 13:39:43	paperdigits	We had other stuff in things like pelican, but since its just a website, the custom plugins went stale and who wants to do a lot maintenance on a static site??
2021-06-04 13:40:02	paperdigits	Hugo means getting the binary and running it. That's all.
2021-06-04 13:40:23	paperdigits	No language maintenance and the templating doesn't change that often.
2021-06-04 13:41:42	paperdigits	One site is using metalsmith, with is JS/node, I hate that site.
2021-06-04 13:41:50	paperdigits	Can't even build it anymore
2021-06-04 13:49:25	-->	@jivan:opaline.uk (None) has been invited to #🗣 JB Chat
2021-06-04 19:41:46	<--	@ymsa1104:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-06-05 21:45:21	<--	@..giftson:matrix.org (None) has left #🗣 JB Chat
2021-06-06 12:44:34	paperdigits	https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/01/amazon-us-customers-given-one-week-to-opt-out-of-mass-wireless-sharing
2021-06-06 12:44:56	paperdigits	Just a few days to opt out of Amazon's weird mesh network thing.